Author Topic: Thoughts about combat  (Read 6718 times)

Offline Ixolite

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Thoughts about combat
« on: February 22, 2011, 04:48:39 pm »
Could you share some insight about the combat mechanics?

I know its rather early to ask about that, but hearing about (possible) no mouse input and seeing the new videos... well, let's say I have my doubts. As much as I like the game concept so far, I am not a big fan of arcade type combat that requires nimble fingers more than some deeper thought.

What I'd like to see personally is some sort of turn-based mechanics (maybe real-time with regenerating action points like in Fallout Tactics?) or at least an "active" pause that would let me assess the situation, and plan the course of action.

Of course the combat may very well work great the way you design it after all the elements are in place, hence my first question, if you could spare any details about it?

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 05:06:11 pm »
The combat in general is going to be action-adventure, like Zelda or Crystalis or similar.  It's not turn-based at all, and there's no way to pause the game at all.

That said, a few notes:

- The videos you've seen so far have the enemies and player moving pretty fast.  That's actually been slowed down to about 2/3 of the speed there in the new version.

- Expect to need both nimble fingers and deeper thought.  Though, depending on your playstyle, you can get away with a lot more of one versus the other.  If you have super nimble fingers you can probably make a game out of dodging and weaving to avoid damage and thus avoid some of the deeper thought.  If you want to avoid the nimble fingers approach, then you'll want to really focus on your loadout and your crafting, to make powerful combinations of items and abilities that you can use in combat.

- At the other end of things, you can always stick to lower or higher level regions compared to your own player level, to adjust the difficulty relative to your skill at the game as a whole.  So if you're not wanting to be nimble or deep thinking, you can get by with just being cautious and not going into territory that is too dangerous for you at the current time.

-One of the things about combat is that you'll want to prepare in advance for what you need.  When you first enter a new area or go through a door, there's a period where you're in an invincibility bubble.  This is not "paused," but you can't be hurt and you can take as long as you want to assess the situation and plan.  You can adjust your loadout, mess in your inventory, all that stuff.  Even target enemies.  But you can't attack or use abilities, and as soon as you move the invincibility bubble disappears.  Then you need to be prepared to deal with the nearby enemies with your current equipment, or retreat to a safe area and come back when you've re-equipped.

- Bear in mind that games like Crystalis and Zelda have a somewhat limited amount of strategy to their combat.  We hope to push it further than those, but it's not going to be remotely like Final Fantasy Tactics or a strategy game or similar.  I've not played Fallout Tactics, but I'd wager a guess it won't be like that at all just from the name. ;)

- That said, a lot of the strategy of this game is not about direct combat at all.  It's about how you choose to affect the world with your larger decisions, and what choices you make in terms of customizing your own loadout, crafting, etc.  By the time you reach the point of an important combat encounter (as opposed to the small-time encounters that are all over the place), all your past decisions are stacking on top of one another to really determine how prepared you are to face the enemy given your skill at the action part of the action-adventure genre.

The game isn't a button-masher by any stretch of the imagination, but it's also not a tactics game.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 05:23:21 pm by x4000 »
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Offline Ixolite

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2011, 03:18:34 pm »
Ah, the invincibility bubble sounds good, actually more or less like something I had in mind when saying about "active pause". Good to hear about slowing it down a bit as well :)

Actually it sounds interesting - I can live with action oriented combat if it is backed up by the other mechanics you mentioned. I was wondering how will combat fit into grand scheme of things, but now that you mentioned about world affecting decisions having influence on the combat as well - let's say I can stop holding my breath ;)

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2011, 03:25:11 pm »
Cool stuff. :)

And really, the main thing to remember about this game is that it's not a game about combat at all.  It's about exploration and survival, and so sometimes that means avoidance.  Unlike a linear game, you don't have to kill every enemy just because they are there.

The combat is there to provide spice and challenge, and to create problems to solve as you explore, but it's not where the meat of the decision making of the game lies.  Of course we want combat to be interesting in and of itself, and to be suitably varied and deep for what it is, but combat is probably 30% of the game at absolute most I guess is what I mean.
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 04:30:55 pm »
And I'm glad for that. Combat is fun, but if we want to go back to the great-grandfather example of Crystalis, it had waaaaaaaaay too much. Half of that game was pure grinding. And it went for the really cruel method of making certain monsters invincible if you weren't suitably leveled up. So no clever tactics or fast fingers could get you out of simply having to grind more monsters.

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 04:52:21 pm »
Yeah, that's really true about Crystalis.  I'd forgotten about the invincible monsters above a certain level, I haven't played that game for a few years.  That was really annoying!

In terms of Zelda, I guess that game goes a bit the opposite route.  There, combat is everpresent and yet kind of meaningless.  Don't get me wrong, I love Zelda, but I don't want to imitate its formula.  In that game you run into thousands of enemies that it really matters nothing if you kill them or not, unless you need hearts or rupees or just need to get past them.  Late in the game, that means that if I'm trekking back and forth across hyrule, I'm just running past all the enemies rather than fighting any of them -- I've already fought them, and there's no reward, so why bother?

That's where monsters granting experience points is nice, because then at least you get something tangible and permanent from every enemy you kill, even if it's not much.  If I just feel like fighting a bunch of weak monsters today for the fun of it, I ought to be able to do that and feel like I accomplished at least something small (experience gain).  But that's really different from making me fight a bunch of monsters.

AI War is a game about combat, by contrast.  As much variance and extra things you can do in that game, it all boils down to fighting and figuring out better ways to fight and getting advantages when you fight.  Or getting a minor faction to fight for you, sometimes, I guess.  That's a really focused view of the game, and something I was intentionally cultivating because that's the core of the RTS experience for me.

Civilization IV was another game I loved, though, and it's about so much more than combat.  I'd say that combat is maybe 30% of the purpose in that game, too.  I certainly spend 70% or more of my time doing other things such as managing my expansion and economy, managing my cities, etc.  In fact I'd usually go out of my way to avoid fights except when I really needed to take something over, because I was able to progress my interests without having to fight constantly.  My uncle, on the other hand, I think spent a good 70% of his time fighting in Civ IV.  Honestly that strategy didn't work out overly good for him, but we were playing middling AIs and he had fun.  And my dad and I covered for him.

I think that AVWW is more like Civ IV than AI War in terms of its focus.  It's not like you'll be spending a bunch of time micromanaging your settlements or something -- most of that is automated as this isn't a city-builder -- but you will be spending most of your time adventuring around, searching for stuff to craft with, and doing things for NPCs.  Sometimes that will include unavoidable combat, and most of the time it will include some low-level combat that is easy and that doesn't suck up your attention much (aka, like most of the Zelda combat).  If you want, it can also include some very challenging combat, but that's a matter of what sort of activities you try to undertake, and where you undertake them.

If you want to just largely ignore combat that will be very difficult, the same as in Civ IV, as enemies will engage you and there's just no way around it, but if you're pumping yourself up "economically" to a huge degree, and staying close to home, then the combat can be made trivial at least.  If you want to largely focus on combat that is also possible, as you can just push way out into the wild and fight the tougher monsters without being super prepared for them, but that's probably also not the best idea because you're a lot likelier to die and lose it all.

As with Civ IV, the best strategy is probably one of balance, making sure that you pay attention to your crafting and settlement building, and that you improve the world in ways that benefit you.  But as with Civ IV or AI War, it's not our job to tell you how to play -- we build the world, and you decide what strikes your fancy best out of the options you have.  How much combat or exploration is in a given play session might vary from session to session, too, depending on your mood that day.  There are minecraft days where I just build the whole time, and other days when I go exploring into caves most of the time.  Choice is good. :)

Anyway... ;)
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 07:37:19 pm »
Thats one of the thibgs that put me off civ5, seemd too much focused on combat mo. So glad to hear its more like civ 4 :D

Is there any estimate of button use? E.g. will I be able to use an external controller in a meaningful way? Figure since i basically grew up with SNES zelda I would get an external controler here as well since I think thats easier then using a keyboard in such games (imo) ;)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 07:48:49 pm »
Oh yeah, we're designing this for use with controllers as one of the primary vectors of working with it.  If you want an awesome controller, I can heartily recommend the Logitech RumblePad IIs.  Of course, that's very like the PS3 controller, but that's to my preference.

In general we're assuming controllers that have at least 10 buttons.  The buttons are 6 for abilities, 1 for switching through the three ability rows, 1 for targeting, 1 for interact/talk/open, and 1 for menu.  With four face buttons, two sets of shoulder buttons, and two buttons in the select/start area of the gamepad, that's ten.

Granted there are other non-essential functions as well, such as jumping to a specific menu page directly, that aren't mapped to the gamepad directly but which the keyboard does support.  If you happen to have more buttons on your gamepad, then you can map the extra buttons to whatever other functions you want.  You could also map clicking of the analog sticks if you really want to, I'm sure, on gamepads that support that. 

Incidentally, even a Wii Remote + Nunchuck combination could support this (Z, C, B, A, minus, plus, and the four arrow directions ala Zelda).  So ten really does seem to be the magic number, which is why we settled on that. 

Anyway, that's the core button set, and anything else beyond that should be nonessential and something that a gamepad can easily do without without being hampered.  Most of the way you interact with the world is either using an ability or using the interact/talk/open button.

In menus of course some of those functions change to OK, Cancel, tab across, tab down, etc.  But really all you HAVE to have in the menus is OK and Cancel in addition to the normal movement; the tabbing down and across is just a convenience.
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Offline Fleet

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2011, 09:34:38 pm »
So, if I need to step away from the computer for a moment, does this mean that my option is closing down the game? Is this what is meant by "no way to pause the game at all"? Surely I'm misinterpreting this.

Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2011, 09:45:26 pm »
So, if I need to step away from the computer for a moment, does this mean that my option is closing down the game? Is this what is meant by "no way to pause the game at all"? Surely I'm misinterpreting this.

You'll have to either close down the game, or quickly escape to a new chunk, which would put you into the invincibility state. We may also come up with some other mechanisms for letting the player "hide" for a bit, but the world itself would keep going in any event.  This is the same as... well, pretty much any online game that's server based with a lot of players, or the same as Minecraft, etc. 

We like to keep the design the same between the single and multiplayer components, as you may have noticed with AI War.  And the fact is that a global pause is just not something that's cool in a multiplayer game of this style.  So if we have so solve the "what do we do if the player needs to step away from the keyboard" in multiplayer, then we may as well solve it the same way in single player, too. 

Right now the invincibility-when-going-into-a-new-area thing handles most cases pretty well except sudden phone calls or emergencies that call you away from the computer.  We don't have all the answers on how to solve that particular one just yet.  It's possible that we might actually include some sort of administrative "server command" for halting the entire game flow and blacking out the screens of players temporarily if worse comes to worst, I'm not sure.

To best answer your question, I suppose the simplest possible response is this: we have a lot of possible ideas floating around about this, but without testing them and gathering player feedback we aren't sure which will be the best yet.  We intend to solve this one way or the other in alpha.  Ideally the solution will be something that doesn't allow for pause-spamming, doesn't lead to annoying interruptions in co-op play when one player's phone rings, and which doesn't annoy the solo players.

I'm confident we'll figure something out, but so far it's been mostly a downstream concern because we're not to the point where we can really try that stuff out, yet.
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 11:08:43 am »
Cool, I will invest in such a controller I think :). (looking like PS3 is fine by me, my second and third console systems was a PS and a PS2 anyways :) )
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Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 11:14:23 am »
Cool stuff!
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Offline Entrenched Homperson

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 03:35:26 pm »
 At first, I didn't know if this was gonna be my kind of game. Normally I'm not really a top-down fan. The more I hear about it, however, the more it sounds like the innovation you bring to all your other games is gonna be evident here, too. Can't wait to play this now! Looks cool!

Also, I assume this is the final incarnation of SomethingAlden Ridge that I read about on your main page quite some time ago right?
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Offline x4000

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 03:41:26 pm »
Thanks a lot!

In terms of this being the "final incarnation" of Alden Ridge, I doubt that -- Alden Ridge is more about hand-crafted levels and environmental puzzles, and is a game we'll still probably make someday, given enough time developing games.  That said, this game is definitely descended from many of the ideas in Alden Ridge, although the gameplay and style of worldbuilding is vastly different.
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Offline RooksBailey

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Re: Thoughts about combat
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2011, 09:00:24 pm »
Quote
I think that AVWW is more like Civ IV than AI War in terms of its focus.  It's not like you'll be spending a bunch of time micromanaging your settlements or something -- most of that is automated as this isn't a city-builder -- but you will be spending most of your time adventuring around, searching for stuff to craft with, and doing things for NPCs.  Sometimes that will include unavoidable combat, and most of the time it will include some low-level combat that is easy and that doesn't suck up your attention much (aka, like most of the Zelda combat).  If you want, it can also include some very challenging combat, but that's a matter of what sort of activities you try to undertake, and where you undertake them.

I really like the sound of this.  When combat is unrelenting, it loses its drama.  It also begins to steal the gamer's focus.  A 70/30 split sounds just about right.   :)