Author Topic: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)  (Read 3813 times)

Offline Freezerburn

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The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« on: December 17, 2011, 06:06:13 pm »
While I am definitely enjoying where things have been going recently (even if things are a bit "bare" at the moment), when I came back to play some AVWW after a couple month hiatus in the most recent patch, with a new world, I found a rather nasty surprise waiting for me. Monsters, if I may put it this way, spawn way too many freakin bullets that last for extended periods of time.

I think I should put it more eloquently than that though. Before this recent patch, I will agree that enemies really did not do much. They fired a couple spells off and then I killed them, often without taking any damage, so I welcomed the patch notes which said that there were more bullets spawned to make thing more interesting. Then I went into an area with Lightning Espers and Water Espers (or whatever their name was, they fire a ton of bolts of water). My screen then immediately began to fill with bullets. To say the least this is hard to dodge. In corridors, it often became impossible to dodge the 3*2+6*2 bullets being spawned by two Lightning Espers and two Water Espers, all wedged into some corner. (even a single Lightning Esper with its three bullet spread can make a small corridor a corridor of unavoidable damage) On top of this problem of Touhou-esque bullet generation, they also fire spells of fast. This not only makes waves of hard/impossible to avoid spells, but it creates a constant stream of them. I even found a point where two Water Espers were firing waves of spells through a corridor in some stairs, creating a nigh-impossible to avoid damage "wall" of water spells all the way across the narrow stairway.
With the new system of not having potions, this is particularly bad, causing all sorts of times where I can't avoid damage and I can't heal it without killing more enemies, causing me to lose more health, in a vicious cycle. In fact, I found that just sitting directly in the line of fire and spamming spells to kill enemies as fast as possible, getting the small health-restoring particles they drop, was often the best strategy to retain the most amount of health. Occasionally dodging when there is a chance of getting through the wall of spells helped, but doing so constantly would generally just lead me to losing MORE health because I was hitting enemies less. (granted, I should probably use tab auto-aiming, but I don't usually think about it or use it)

I would also like to bring up an additional point to do with monsters and damage. I decided to go to a slightly higher level area than my civilization. (level 2 in a level 3 area, specifically) It was a desert area, which I actually had never been in before due to just exploring massive buildings/cave systems largely in winter areas in the previous world. If you've been in a desert area, I'm sure you've seen the dust whirlwind enemies that spawn. The problem was when one of them hit me. At the normal 100% health point, a single hit took out a bit less than 1/3 of my health. And this enemy was just a normal enemy that spawned everywhere, in large quantities inside of buildings actually. (I entered a room and saw 4 of them immediately) On top of this, they had massive quantities of health that took me a very long time to whittle away.
Now, I know that areas above my level are supposed to be hard, but having an enemy that can kill me in roughly 4 hits when they are one level above me when I am at a normal amount of health is, in my opinion, a tad ridiculous. I was hoping to be able to explore with a challenge, not be almost insta-gibbed by entering a room with a few of these enemies in it and be unable to find some kind of ledge easily to avoid damage. (particularly if you are in a narrow corridor with little room to jump)

Now, maybe I'm just a complainer and other people find how things currently are a-ok, but I figured I'd at least start the topic for people to discuss what they think the current balance of monsters are. How hard they hit, how many projectiles are spawned, etc. I hope I'm not coming off as just a whiner and have brought up some valid points for balance discussion.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 07:34:42 pm »
Welcome to the forums!

I don't think that there's anyone claiming that things are a-ok. But, if you haven't been around the forums much than you may not be aware that the game just underwent MASSIVE changes. The result? A game that at it's core is better and will be a lot more fun, but for the moment is way out of balance. We're planning on doing a lot with balancing the game, but, there've been other things that are and were a bit higher priority. But a lot of balancing will need to be done before the game's 1.0 release.

Please don't take this as a dismissal of your feelings about the game, it's not, it's merely an explanation of why the game is in the current state it's in.

To be perfectly honest, I tend to agree with you about the water espers.

Offline Moo

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 07:38:16 pm »
Bear in mind that right now, going one level up from your civ level gives a 100% increse in difficulty.

I can't say I love espers either, but they're not a major problem.

Offline Freezerburn

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 07:46:48 pm »
Bear in mind that right now, going one level up from your civ level gives a 100% increse in difficulty.

I can't say I love espers either, but they're not a major problem.
Ah ha, I did not realize that 100% difficult gap. That removes a good portion of my complaint about the tornadoes that were absolutely destroying me. I don't agree with such a hug jump in difficult with a single level, but I can accept the explanation.

Welcome to the forums!

I don't think that there's anyone claiming that things are a-ok. But, if you haven't been around the forums much than you may not be aware that the game just underwent MASSIVE changes. The result? A game that at it's core is better and will be a lot more fun, but for the moment is way out of balance. We're planning on doing a lot with balancing the game, but, there've been other things that are and were a bit higher priority. But a lot of balancing will need to be done before the game's 1.0 release.

Please don't take this as a dismissal of your feelings about the game, it's not, it's merely an explanation of why the game is in the current state it's in.

To be perfectly honest, I tend to agree with you about the water espers.
I realize that there have been massive changes, (reading the blog is always interesting) however I did some poking about and have only seen on post made in passing mentioning the Espers, so I figured I would bring this up. I figure it's better to at least mention this than to not and never see anything about it. Especially when it transforms a game like this into a bullet hell game :P

Offline tigersfan

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 07:51:18 pm »
Bear in mind that right now, going one level up from your civ level gives a 100% increse in difficulty.

I can't say I love espers either, but they're not a major problem.
Ah ha, I did not realize that 100% difficult gap. That removes a good portion of my complaint about the tornadoes that were absolutely destroying me. I don't agree with such a hug jump in difficult with a single level, but I can accept the explanation.
The 100% isn't set in stone, but that's were the line is right now.

Welcome to the forums!

I don't think that there's anyone claiming that things are a-ok. But, if you haven't been around the forums much than you may not be aware that the game just underwent MASSIVE changes. The result? A game that at it's core is better and will be a lot more fun, but for the moment is way out of balance. We're planning on doing a lot with balancing the game, but, there've been other things that are and were a bit higher priority. But a lot of balancing will need to be done before the game's 1.0 release.

Please don't take this as a dismissal of your feelings about the game, it's not, it's merely an explanation of why the game is in the current state it's in.

To be perfectly honest, I tend to agree with you about the water espers.
I realize that there have been massive changes, (reading the blog is always interesting) however I did some poking about and have only seen on post made in passing mentioning the Espers, so I figured I would bring this up. I figure it's better to at least mention this than to not and never see anything about it. Especially when it transforms a game like this into a bullet hell game :P

Yeah, feedback is good. We appreciate it. :)

Offline Hyfrydle

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 08:01:06 pm »
The espers tend to be okay outdoors but in a confined space it's instant death which is not a fair way to die. I think the projectiles last too long and are too big.

Offline Dizzard

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 05:31:30 am »
I think the water espers are a bit crazy, especially when you're climbing up a tight space and they send a torrent of water shooting down on you. I usually just rush the enemy at this point and move past them.

Going above your level is extremely difficult at the moment, but that's just a balancing issue I think.


Offline Underfot

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Re: The State of Monsters (or at least Espers)
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2011, 02:45:37 pm »
Attached two screenshots, they display the issue well.
I love the territorial nature of the espers - they go nuts if you get near them, but I think two things would have to be changed:
They need to stop firing at some point.  Presently they continue firing even when I'm out of range, so if I wander back there's a wall of hurt waiting.
They need to be kept out of small spaces or have an alternate attack indoors.  No amount of skill lets you dodge their shots in a basement.

I expect this will become much less of an issue with additional monsters.  If espers are kept from clumping together and used instead as  solo 'guard dogs' mixed in with other enemies, they could probably be used in their present state.