The particle effects do this game a disservice

[zebramatt]

My field of view in this game makes dodging attacks a matter of first learning the attack variations of any given enemy, then praying to whichever gods my character believes in that the random nature of said variations is favorable this time around.

[snelg]

I'm really loving AVWW so far, and it's gotten noticeably more fun in just a week. But I have to say that the particle effects in this game nearly ruin the whole package for me. I thought it was just Fireball and sniper shots at first (since the two are practically identical), but the more I play the more I realize that anything shooting a particle effect just acts as annoyance. The visual effects themselves are nebulous, making it difficult to gauge the actual hit boxes of projectiles. There are also a lot of cases where multiple projectiles are spaced too closely together, which wouldn't be an issue if my character were small and agile, but this is not the case. Now, many of the games I played in my younger years were platformers, and in my later years I've played a lot of bullet hell and shoot 'em up games. AVWW has elements of both in its sidescrolling segments, but the problem here is a combination of 1) the player characters are too big and slow to adequately dodge the projectiles, and 2) the aforementioned issues with the particle effects being too big, scattered, and nebulous, plus they're oftentimes too close for my big and slow character to squeeze past while jumping. I honestly think the game would be a lot more fun if all of the projectiles were replaced with plain squares or circles. It wouldn't be pretty but at least I'd be able to know where a projectile begins and ends.

I'd like to hear other people's experiences with this aspect of the game because it's starting to deter me from actually playing.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts after a few hours of goofing around. The particles look nifty and stuff, but I can't stop feeling they're kind of annoying.Perhaps adding something extra (like an actual projectile or something) would help? Or maybe it would just look strange. 

Also, the freezing something something that jump around in the ice levels look kind of strange when falling a screen or two since they pick up speed and the particles become sparse.

[superking]

I'm really loving AVWW so far, and it's gotten noticeably more fun in just a week. But I have to say that the particle effects in this game nearly ruin the whole package for me. I thought it was just Fireball and sniper shots at first (since the two are practically identical), but the more I play the more I realize that anything shooting a particle effect just acts as annoyance. The visual effects themselves are nebulous, making it difficult to gauge the actual hit boxes of projectiles. There are also a lot of cases where multiple projectiles are spaced too closely together, which wouldn't be an issue if my character were small and agile, but this is not the case. Now, many of the games I played in my younger years were platformers, and in my later years I've played a lot of bullet hell and shoot 'em up games. AVWW has elements of both in its sidescrolling segments, but the problem here is a combination of 1) the player characters are too big and slow to adequately dodge the projectiles, and 2) the aforementioned issues with the particle effects being too big, scattered, and nebulous, plus they're oftentimes too close for my big and slow character to squeeze past while jumping. I honestly think the game would be a lot more fun if all of the projectiles were replaced with plain squares or circles. It wouldn't be pretty but at least I'd be able to know where a projectile begins and ends.

I strongly agree with all of this: characters are oversized and clumsy, projectiles are overlarge and combat & dodging consequently feel imprecise.

[Spork]

I strongly agree with all of this: characters are oversized and clumsy, projectiles are overlarge and combat & dodging consequently feel imprecise.

I do agree with this. I think the bats are the most fun boss (when they don't get stuck in a wall of course), they do in no way feel like an attrition battle.

For example: The Lightning Esper
They shoot 3 projectlies, not hard to dodge at all, as long as you dodge the whole cluster of (3) projectiles. By running in in the opposite direction or jumping over them. However, it would be much more fun if you could run and then dodge between the bullets. You can do that at the moment but only if you are at a fair distance.

The few times you actually do succeed with this is when you stand directly underneath them, beacuse your character is very thin.

Another way to make it easier to dodge, especially the bosses, is by having a camera that focus between your character and the mouse. This way you will be able to see where you want to see. Check http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=4313

[stblr]

I strongly agree with all of this: characters are oversized and clumsy, projectiles are overlarge and combat & dodging consequently feel imprecise.

I do agree with this. I think the bats are the most fun boss (when they don't get stuck in a wall of course), they do in no way feel like an attrition battle.

I agree, bats bosses are very fun because you have to actively use the terrain to your advantage. I also love the giant skelebot bosses, they can feel pretty epic at times.

For example: The Lightning Esper
They shoot 3 projectlies, not hard to dodge at all, as long as you dodge the whole cluster of (3) projectiles. By running in in the opposite direction or jumping over them. However, it would be much more fun if you could run and then dodge between the bullets. You can do that at the moment but only if you are at a fair distance.

The few times you actually do succeed with this is when you stand directly underneath them, beacuse your character is very thin.

The Espers bug me for exactly the reasons you talk about. Dodging between the 3 projectiles at close or medium range isn't really viable, so your options are sniping them from afar or just taking the hit. It doesn't make for very dynamic or exciting gameplay.

Another way to make it easier to dodge, especially the bosses, is by having a camera that focus between your character and the mouse. This way you will be able to see where you want to see. Check http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=4313

I like this idea. Bloodline Champions, for anyone who's played it, has a camera that follows the mouse so that you can "scout" ahead of you. BLC is a completely different type of game than AVWW but I think it would be a good fit.

[eRe4s3r]

I was thinking a while what it is that really bugs me currently with how AVWW plays, its the huge, out of proportions spells and the particle effects indeed.

The real problem is this: you can't tell the hitbox of the spells, because they are not differentiated by BULLET and EFFECT (ie, 2 seperate particle systems) rather they are swirling somethings which is AOK for non-reflex games, like turn based battle engagements, but for SHMUPS (which is kinda what AVWW is) this is really bad.

Imo the spells need to get a lot smaller, more targeted, more "point and shoot" style spells, more visceral and faster but with smaller hitbox.

Also something else that is bugging me is that spells are too "precomputed" they are too large effects that swirl around, those smaller particle effects should be seperate from the bullet sprite (and in fact NOT move with the bullet). In fact, there should be 3 particle systems per spell, Casting, Bullet and Trail, in AVWW these 3 things are all in one which looks kinda bad, and maybe worse than looking bad is that its extremely bad for gameplay AND performance (The amobea spells can actually crawl my fps down to a halt, and i have a fairly hefty computa ;p)

Bad for gameplay because naturally, dodging through large swirling spells makes it impossible to know where the hitbox is

The thing is, i think the spells look nice, but we are playing games and sometimes spells need to be practical and fun BEFORE being nice to look at.

I am gonna make a mockup post about this seperately to show what the real problem is with spells and their effects

So here is my mockup

First this is the actual problem of spells (most of them anyway)

As you can see, most spells behave like this, no projectile, no trail, just the "effect" (theres some that ONLY have a projectile though, with no clear hitbox either)


This is how it ought to be on the most basic level, a noticeable "Spell" container, and a trail


More effect, but still clearly visible hitbox


Anyhow, my 2 ct ;p
And yeah.. i didn't put ANY effort into the spell mockup, excuse me about that As i can't use the games effects as they are in that grid-setup

[x4000]

Guys -- I honestly don't see what is difficult here.  The front-center of the spell is the part that hurts you.  Always.  End of story.  If there's a trail, it's harmless.  It's an incredibly simple rule of thumb.

In terms of enemy variety... yes, obviously, we need more variety.  Also: shield spells and other things of that nature are coming, and we've talked about them.  Those will make for an alternative to simply jumping out of the way, which isn't really the main way that I expect people to be avoiding damage in this game.  Right now physically dodging is the only way to avoid attacks, but that's not intended to be the only way ever, or even for all that long.  I'd hoped to have the shield stuff in this past week, but with all the other reports I got sidetracked into other stuff.

And in terms of the mouse focus thing for controlling your field of view... that also is in mantis and planned.

In short: patience please!  I think you're getting frustrated by the lack of the full arsenal of gameplay options and blaming it on the particle effects.  Which is understandable, given that you can't read our mind, but I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the particles.  If we get the full arsenal in there and people still hate the way the particles are working, then fine -- I can add in projectiles that are a different color easily enough.  But I want to try it this way first, as I think it looks nicer and is plenty clear; especially if you aren't trying to be super-dodge-everything person, which isn't really the goal once the shield stuff in particular is in place.  Stay tuned!

[eRe4s3r]

Mhh, i feel misunderstood

I think spells and their effects should be visceral and the "bon-mot" of the game. This is the 1 thing we do over and over, and i want spells to be so epic, physical, forceful and slick that i WANT to cast them simply to enjoy the effect and explosion, not even to do any damage.

Imo spell effects need physical properties (as in, small particles fall to the ground and sizzle out, smoke gets blown away by the wind, while the trail wavers and pulsates as the projectile moves across the screen). This is probably the only stage of the development where this can still be done, because if you got 200 + spells included this'll be not fixable.

[x4000]

eRe4s3r -- I sent you a PM.

[eRe4s3r]

I replied to it 

Though... ah well, it is not all as simple as photoshop when it comes to games ;p

[zebramatt]

I'm going to reserve proper comment on the following until my in-game field of view improves but it occurs to me that (in at least some cases) enemies don't telegraph their different attacks particularly far in advance either. Fast-moving, wide-spread attacks with such little warning mean I take rather a lot of damage in even relatively easy engagements with projectile-firing enemies.

The giant skelebots are actually an exception because their timing is relatively easy to learn and dodge around.

Lightning Espers and Amoebas, on the other hand... 

[Mánagarmr]

I do agree on the Amoeba issue though. I have a 4 GHz Core i7 and an oversized GTX 580, and it easily slows to a crawl during amoeba spam.

[snelg]

For example: The Lightning Esper
They shoot 3 projectlies, not hard to dodge at all, as long as you dodge the whole cluster of (3) projectiles. By running in in the opposite direction or jumping over them. However, it would be much more fun if you could run and then dodge between the bullets. You can do that at the moment but only if you are at a fair distance.

The few times you actually do succeed with this is when you stand directly underneath them, beacuse your character is very thin.

The Espers bug me for exactly the reasons you talk about. Dodging between the 3 projectiles at close or medium range isn't really viable, so your options are sniping them from afar or just taking the hit. It doesn't make for very dynamic or exciting gameplay.

I've found them pretty dodge-able, even at close distances (though what I might have a different idea of what "close" is  ). If they're a bit up in the air you can run under them, stop and then continue without getting hit. And if they're too close to the ground you can usually jump over them with ride the lightning in a similar fashion instead. They're also kinda easy to take out at range if all else fails.

*pretty colours*

eRe4s3r, I think you make a very good illustration of the problem with those mockups. The spell looks like it's got a lot more force/weight to it.

Guys -- I honestly don't see what is difficult here.  The front-center of the spell is the part that hurts you.  Always.  End of story.  If there's a trail, it's harmless.  It's an incredibly simple rule of thumb.

Thanks, will try to keep this in mind.

[KDR_11k]

As a programmer it's clear that the damaging part of a spell is the particle spawner, not the trail but intuitively it looks like the part where the particles get large is the main body of the spell. Most players aren't programmers and are likely used to seeing projectiles that have the biggest and brightest effects around their hitbox.

I'm going to reserve proper comment on the following until my in-game field of view improves but it occurs to me that (in at least some cases) enemies don't telegraph their different attacks particularly far in advance either. Fast-moving, wide-spread attacks with such little warning mean I take rather a lot of damage in even relatively easy engagements with projectile-firing enemies.

The giant skelebots are actually an exception because their timing is relatively easy to learn and dodge around.

Lightning Espers and Amoebas, on the other hand...

I haven't fought any recently but the giant skelebot's melee attack range seemed very hard to estimate since it expands pretty far beyond any visible part of the sprite and even the one frame used for the attack doesn't extend as far as the range.

[eRe4s3r]

As a programmer it's clear that the damaging part of a spell is the particle spawner, not the trail but intuitively it looks like the part where the particles get large is the main body of the spell. Most players aren't programmers and are likely used to seeing projectiles that have the biggest and brightest effects around their hitbox.

Wow your post is what made me even realize just now what bugged me with the spell in the first place, i didn't even realize this when doing the mockup. 

I wish i was a professional FX/2D artist but alas i am just a 3D-Artist/Renderer with way too little time to perfect other skills. I couldn't even mock up a proper fireball if i tried ,p But maybe something can be done (something thats relatively easy) to make the spell work and look better.