Author Topic: The particle effects do this game a disservice  (Read 9861 times)

Offline stblr

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The particle effects do this game a disservice
« on: October 01, 2011, 11:34:00 am »
I'm really loving AVWW so far, and it's gotten noticeably more fun in just a week. But I have to say that the particle effects in this game nearly ruin the whole package for me. I thought it was just Fireball and sniper shots at first (since the two are practically identical), but the more I play the more I realize that anything shooting a particle effect just acts as annoyance. The visual effects themselves are nebulous, making it difficult to gauge the actual hit boxes of projectiles. There are also a lot of cases where multiple projectiles are spaced too closely together, which wouldn't be an issue if my character were small and agile, but this is not the case. Now, many of the games I played in my younger years were platformers, and in my later years I've played a lot of bullet hell and shoot 'em up games. AVWW has elements of both in its sidescrolling segments, but the problem here is a combination of 1) the player characters are too big and slow to adequately dodge the projectiles, and 2) the aforementioned issues with the particle effects being too big, scattered, and nebulous, plus they're oftentimes too close for my big and slow character to squeeze past while jumping. I honestly think the game would be a lot more fun if all of the projectiles were replaced with plain squares or circles. It wouldn't be pretty but at least I'd be able to know where a projectile begins and ends.

I'd like to hear other people's experiences with this aspect of the game because it's starting to deter me from actually playing.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2011, 11:50:39 am »
And then there's the dragon's breath which is just as nebulous but way more dangerous.

Offline coconutpete

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 01:05:39 pm »
 have absolutely no problem with the effects.. I love the visuals on all the spells.. guess it's a like it or not thing.

Offline FallingStar

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 01:11:58 pm »
I really like the look of the spell effects personally, though I'll agree its really hard to dodge a lot of the incoming fire, especially after the speed boosts.

Overall I take it as an indication that the player is intended to get hit if you're too close to a ranged enemy (amoeba is the worst I've hit early on). . .basically that the tactic of bullet hell type dodging isn't being encouraged, ie a situation like in Super Meat Boy where everything is player skill and repetition.  Rather the general theme of the boss fights is more a resource management thing of getting enough potions or scrolls to mitigate the damage you inevitably take and to figure a spell combo or pattern for the random room you're in that will prevent you from melting all your resources.

I'm sure that the effects could be toned down if needed.  I mean Beat Hazard has a ton of very colorful particle effects while very much being a bullet hell type dodging thing.  Its just not the sort of gameplay I think is intended.  I suppose that one could chose a difficulty setting that slowed enemies and their effects if you wanted to do that . . .during 0.500 and such I was able to dodge most shots pretty well.

I think the only thing that really bugs me about it all is that between the near impossible to dodge shots and the recommended screen sizes to see things is that boss battles often end up happening off screen.  I'd prefer not to have to choose between seeing what I'm shooting at or burning twice as many scrolls/ potions.  Maybe someday there will be a short shield spell or something else to be an inbetween option.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2011, 01:32:47 pm »
I agree it is hard to know what's damaging and what's not in amongst all the flashy particles. I don't know if it would be possible to go in and pick out the actual hurty bits in brighter colors or something, but it might make some fights feel less like luck if you know which parts are really dangerous.

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2011, 04:24:54 pm »
It would be nice if there were parts inside the spells that were of a different color that would better define what you actually have to get hit by to take damage.

A shield spell of some kind would be nice as well. Perhaps one that would only activate for a brief moment that you activate just before the projectile hits.




Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2011, 04:35:27 pm »
That attrition style combat is something Terraria is trying to get away from. It's not that much fun. Generally enemy behaviours in AVWW probably need to be made more interesting. Enemies that just run at you and try to touch you aren't all that fun to deal with, if you look at something like the Castlevania games the enemies rarely just try to run into you, they often stay at a distance and either perform occasional strikes or shoot at you. Enemies that just run at you are basically a battle of numbers, whether you have enough DPS to down them before they touch you (you can only dodge so much of that).

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2011, 04:55:26 pm »
Perhaps melee range spells like Death Touch and Fire Touch should destroy projectiles.

Offline stblr

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2011, 04:56:23 pm »
Perhaps melee range spells like Death Touch and Fire Touch should destroy projectiles.

This would be very hard to pull off consistently with projectiles generally as fast as they are now.

Offline Yuugi

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2011, 04:58:03 pm »
I'd just like it if the hitboxes of the effects were a little more apparent. It's hard to gauge wether you are safe by jumping into the particle trail of something, vs. getting hit and omgmurdered.

Touhou games have bullets everywhere, but at least it's easy to tell what part of them has to hit your hitbox (and your own hitbox is visible as well).

It feels weird that amoebaspam is harder to dodge reliably than touhou boss attack patterns. :|

Offline The Mimic

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2011, 04:58:38 pm »
I actually like most of the particle effects. I don't have any trouble knowing where the hit box is, either. Except maybe on dragon's fire, that's pretty hit or miss. Literally.

I'd like fire touch and death touch to have a more concrete looking effect. It's so minor at the moment! Maybe if it made the enemy change colors or have some sort of visual effect on them, that'd be awesome too.

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2011, 05:04:35 pm »
Perhaps melee range spells like Death Touch and Fire Touch should destroy projectiles.

This would be very hard to pull off consistently with projectiles generally as fast as they are now.

I think adding a slight bit of duration (if it's not already there) would be enough to ease timing a bit so the projectile runs into the spell.

I'm not sure what the duration is on the melee spells, but I've seen enemies running into other spells rather than the spells running into them and getting hit so I guess there is a bit of duration already there with most of them (I could be wrong though).


Offline Yuugi

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2011, 05:16:14 pm »
Enemies flashing purple/red when hit by Death/Fire Touch is something I like the thought of, as well. :o

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 05:54:40 pm »
Destroyable projectiles would add an interesting skill element to fights, actually. I think you can destroy the dragon's fire currently, although I don't know how much HP the fire bits have. For it to work right, you'd want them to have very low HP so that an appropriate level character can one-shot them with something like fire touch.

Offline Misery

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Re: The particle effects do this game a disservice
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 06:02:12 pm »
I'm really loving AVWW so far, and it's gotten noticeably more fun in just a week. But I have to say that the particle effects in this game nearly ruin the whole package for me. I thought it was just Fireball and sniper shots at first (since the two are practically identical), but the more I play the more I realize that anything shooting a particle effect just acts as annoyance. The visual effects themselves are nebulous, making it difficult to gauge the actual hit boxes of projectiles. There are also a lot of cases where multiple projectiles are spaced too closely together, which wouldn't be an issue if my character were small and agile, but this is not the case. Now, many of the games I played in my younger years were platformers, and in my later years I've played a lot of bullet hell and shoot 'em up games. AVWW has elements of both in its sidescrolling segments, but the problem here is a combination of 1) the player characters are too big and slow to adequately dodge the projectiles, and 2) the aforementioned issues with the particle effects being too big, scattered, and nebulous, plus they're oftentimes too close for my big and slow character to squeeze past while jumping. I honestly think the game would be a lot more fun if all of the projectiles were replaced with plain squares or circles. It wouldn't be pretty but at least I'd be able to know where a projectile begins and ends.

I'd like to hear other people's experiences with this aspect of the game because it's starting to deter me from actually playing.


If you've played enough bullet-hell or "danmaku" shmups though, you'd know that even in those, it's often not so easy, the hitboxes not so clear.

In MOST of those (the good ones anyway) the bullets, for example, are very crisp and clear, but their HITBOXES are not. You might have a bullet that's a decent sized circle, but in that sorta game, it's not the ENTIRE circle that can hit you; the ACTUAL hitbox is hidden somewhere in there, and only through practice and experimenting (and near misses) can you determine exactly where this is, and then it takes FURTHER practice to be able to accurately use it to your advantage in some of the denser patterns.   By doing so though, you can often squeeze your ship through what looks like a solid wall of bullets.

Wether by accident or by design, I think that applies here.  Even with the "nebulous" effects, I still dont honestly think it's that hard to determine the hitboxes for most things.  Now, granted, I play *alot* of danmaku shmups, so I'm kinda used to the idea by default.    But after having played this game enough, I've gotten an idea as to some of the exact points of contact between my character and enemies/bullets, or my own attacks and the enemies.  If you just keep at it, you'll find that you probably can do the same.

As for the size/agility of the character.... I dont really think that is bad either.   Example, I got to the point last night of encountering the red amoeba bosses for the first time;  nasty snots, those are!  They fire tons and tons of projectiles that are very fast and can fly a huge range, and they HURT if they hit you.   At first I'd wondered, ok, my character isnt fast enough to deal with those so suddenly.... HOW am I supposed to deal with this?

But there was, in fact, a way to do it.   Once again applying what I know from the shmup genre, I was able to look at the pattern of it's shots, and find points where I could stand/walk to avoid it, based on the angles it was at and it's movement, and all that fun stuff.    I was even able to jump close to the thing and fire off Creeping Death at it... without getting hit, even that close.


It's difficult, yes, but I think it's supposed to be.    But you can do it, with practice.