The main problem: NO HUNCHBACKS

[misterT0AST]

Hey there! First of all this game rocks, the concept is simply perfect. The problem (and I've heard many people say the same) is that there's something boring about the visuals. After playing for quite a while I was able to exactly put my finger on it.
The landscape looks freaking great.
The idea of pre-rendered sprites is great.
The particle effects are nice, and the animations are pretty fluid.
What is it then?
It's the damn character stances:

This is Fulgore, a character from       This is Alan Fletcher from AVWW.
Killer Instinct.
                                                           

You see the problem? Look at the sprite from A Valley Without Wind.
Good old Alan is a rugged adventurer who single handedly killed 2 huge skeleton robots. He's a bulky man with spiky hair and a freaking power armor. But he still looks like a dweeb.

I think all of your characters look very cool, but when they're standing they look like bowling pins, like obelisks, and they're overall in desperate need to have actual animations when they cast spells or even just stand there.

Even without animations, I wish skeletons and even people were more hunched forward, like they're craving for blood, ready to attack and to fight.


I leave you with this photoshop of the actual sprite, which in my humble opinion seems more appropriate for a damn facebook game, or a dating sim. I repeat: the actual models look freaking cool, but something has to be done for their stance.



I know, that was excessive, but I couldn't help myself.
I really hope I didn't offend anyone, I truly love your game and I'm losing many hours of sleep playing it

I seriously think that when this issue is dealt with the number of people complaining about the visuals will decrease immensely.


Seriously, look at this screenshot, it's gorgeous. The only problem is the guy standing there like a tool.


Stay hunchy.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Honestly, we could have a AAA company do the graphics for this game and people would still complain.  So you just can't satisfy everyone. 

And, funny enough, if we implemented this, you'd get people complaining about all the people hunched over. 

King

[Martyn van Buren]

Interesting, I never saw it that way.  But come to think of it I think I prefer our characters as some dweebs who have wandered out of their underground shelters into this unholy mess rather than a bunch of badass WARRIUR DUDEZ

[Terraziel]

I say this knowing full well it's way too late to change......

Whilst not needing to go as far as making people hunched over, the stance is faintly artificial feeling, maybe if they just slouched their shoulders when idling.

[keith.lamothe]

I would definitely go for a Wolverine standing stance.  The enemies would start running the other directions, afraid that they were about to become multiple sprites.

[Terraziel]

Glyph bearers are the best at what they do just what they do isn't very nice?

hmm, I suddenly feel like the game needs more moral ambiguity.

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, and welcome to the forums, misterTOAST

[zebramatt]

Hey, despite his somewhat authoritarian stylings, I think misterTOAST makes a fair point.

However, at this stage in the development I suspect it would take a similar outpouring from the entire wider world at large for it to change. (And that might even be understating it.)

I'm not saying it'll never change - AI War got some nice isometric ships, didn't it? - but I think this could probably be marked as a post-3.0 change right now...

[misterT0AST]

I looked at the sprite better and I just realized what to me looks the worst: the arms are laid on the sides.
Real people do that only if they are very confident, even in conversations, or when people feel insecure, they keep them on their belly, or fiddle with their hands.
In a hostile land maybe I wouldn't squat like Shank, but sure as hell I wouldn't keep my hands in my pockets.
Maybe one of my shoulders would be put a little bit forward, maybe I'd even keep my elbows bent and my hands forward, so when I see a tiger I can cover my face and scream like a schoolgirl faster !
If I had a gun or any weapon at all, even a stick, I'd be holding that in front of me, and in AVWW your weapon is magic, which you perform with your hands.

The fact that the character looks a bit like a mannequin makes him feel a bit soulless and fearless too, he doesn't look scared or worried. He's just standing in front of the huge dark bats chest forward like he doesn't even care.
And believe me, if that little cocky sprite knew the difficulty setting I've chosen, and the way I throw away my citizens' lives like they were peanut shells, he wouldn't be standing there so calm like he owns the place.

(By the way, the guy I screencapped just died, that's what I get for tabbing out and posting in a forum when he's in a cave R.I.P. Alan, we will remember your beautiful screenshots and your reckless attitude, even when bats were eating off your face)

Just a tiny tweak to the stance would do miracles imho.
And if it bothers me so much I can always walk back and forth all the time 

[eRe4s3r]

Well, hunchbags? No.. but you are on the right track there anyway

The problem is indeed the stance which goes right into a decision that was made fairly early on after the switch from faux 2.5d to sidescroller. What decision was that you ask?

Imagine you have a character and hes standing with a unique stance like that
http://mmohuts.com/wp-content/gallery/dreamland-online/dreamland-online-overview.jpg

If you render this as sprite you now have the following (big) problems.

1) Idle stance needs Idle Animation, one for each direction hes looking at.
2) Going from Idle to any directional move requires transition animation (often 2-4 frames)
3) Directional movement needs to be unique sprite sequence for each direction, because you can mirror the animation (lazy approach) but it looks very very weird.
4) Movement + Attack requires its own animation sprite and transition sprites, games often use a 2 frame transition into slide - then trigger attack animation and transition back to running, looks a bit glitchy but can look great if properly drawn/rendered.
5) Fall again needs unique frame sequence for direction....
6) Jumping as well, games often use a locked frame for flight where only hair and cloth is animated. and Transition sprites for "start jump / end jump"

So, as you can tell. The decision for the current system is out of necessity. If x4000 wanted to make better animations and thus actual proper stances, he'd have to do all these steps for each player character.

It seems like something that would cost quite a bit to get a good animation specialist. One that can "think" in sprites and their animation needs. One that can rig well, but not just rig, he needs to really understand how a 2-3 frame transition has to be made so it connects gracefully. Its not something you can do without years of practice.

The current system allows for mirroring, which is why you don't see the hands or pose being angled towards the screen slightly. Primarily used as a cost saving measure i'd assume.

In many ways, it would have been better to use 3d-characters, would have saved a lot of grief over sprite animation stuff like this, if you got a skeleton you can just rig it to fit all humanoid meshes, and turning, rotating and transition could all have been handled by IK. From what i can tell, this stance is probably here to stay. Unless x4000 feels to implement 3d-characters at some point, which would be awesome.. and allow for equip-able armor and items, and flowing hair, flowing cloths..... ;p

[misterT0AST]

@ eRe4s3r
That, right there, is a comprehensive and reasonable response!
The fact that hidden arms are better for mirroring didn't even cross my mind.
I still think a better stance could be implemented without having to fiddle around too much, but hey, I'm no developer, so what the hell do I know? Who do I think I am?

Thanks everyone for the patience you showed tolerating an insolent brat like myself   

[Dizzard]

Well the character sprites in no way set my world alight....

At the same time I'm not sure I agree with more people being hunched craving for blood. They're not vampires or wolves. Having characters being hunched might look strange. They might not look human.

The characters could do with some more natural looking animations though. They can be a bit stiff looking.

[zebramatt]

@misterTOAST

Yeah, eReas3r's big on the visuals and never one to hold back a heartfelt criticism on that front, so you're in good company there! 

Generally speaking, Arcen is much lauded for their responsiveness to player feedback. You just have the misfortune of commenting on one of the only aspects which is at this point relatively set in stone, for all the reasons above.

As I say, though, I can see where you're coming from and hope that Valley's successful enough that there'll come a time when things like that might get done without it being financially or logistically impossible.

[The Mimic]

I think you bring up a decent point! A couple of hunched over, aggressive characters wouldn't hurt. Actually, I think for the others just a couple frames of 'breathing' animation would liven things up wonderfully. For reference, look at Samus standing still in Super Metroid. It's incredibly simple but makes a scene seem very lifelike.

Really what makes this hard is that all of the characters are essentially wizards. They don't have a gun to point, claws to brandish, or a sword to hold dramatically. I can't think of another posture that they would take while idle!

One thing I would like to bring up while we're on the subject, however, is the casting animations. Some of them just feel a little... silly. One gentleman kind of raises one knee up with both arms, as though he is catching a baby falling from a distant window. I think I'd prefer a few characters with a basic one-hand-raised animation, where they seem confident and calm. Also, one ice-age person seems to do a distinctly Fonz-like pose when he casts; I like that, though.

[TechSY730]

Although the art could use some polish and extra frames (maybe a few new character sprites), I think that is probably out of scope at the moment.
I'm willing to forgive goofy/stiff/whatever graphics if the gameplay is solid. I am not willing to forgive stiff/poorly-balanced/buggy/whatever gameplay if the graphics are solid. (The sole exception is if the graphics are the point of the game, and even then I typically don't like "artsy" games with not-solid gameplay)