The case for slowing down.

[Professor Paul1290]

This might turn out to be a somewhat unpopular suggestion, but I feel I should put it out there.

Right now there are a lot of complaints about enemies, traps, certain room features being "tedious" or "annoying" and there have been several micro arguments over the fine tuning of such features. However, I think there is something that can be done to address these complaints in a more general way.

I propose changing the game's balance to significantly reduce the average speed at which the player passes enemies and obstacles.

* Professor Paul1290 ducks head for incoming "BOOOOOOOOOOOO"

Wait I'm not crazy (maybe) don't lynch me yet!


The reason I believe this will help is because I feel that the pace of the game is such that players are burning through enemies, traps, and rooms quickly enough that it is unnecessarily increasing the occurrence of repeating room, enemy, and obstacle combinations and creating a need for repetition.

Lets say you have a room full of traps and enemies that the player needs to take a significant amount of time to navigate through. If hypothetically you were to look at such a room by itself out of context, these would seem like valid obstacles that the player should have fun navigating. However, I don't think this holds up as well in the game itself.
I think this is because when the player is playing the game, they have built up the expectation that anything they do will have to be done many more times within a given trip or playing session.

Everything the player would have done by the time they encounter a new obstacle would strongly suggests that any obstacles they traverse will have to be done many more times before they reach their immediate goal. Every enemy, trap, or other obstacle in the game is seen in this context. Because of that it is very easy for such obstacles to feel "annoying" or "tedious".

Compared to other side-scrolling that have similar enemies and obstacles, in AVWW player encounter such obstacles very fast and very frequently. There are some games that are exceptions where this happens even more quickly and frequently, but they tend to be much shorter or have a significant advantage in content density.
Imagine if you took a traditional side-scrolling adventure game and gave it twice as many rooms, but made it so you could pass through them in half the time. You'd be going through similar content within the same amount of time, but it would probably feel more repetitious and everything would feel rather diluted.

To sum up the above, everything can seem "annoying", "tedious", or "repetitive", if you know that you will probably do it ten more times within the next hour.

AVWW is inevitably going to repeat things until the player finally feels like they've had enough of the game. However, I think the sense of repetition can be reduced if the number of reps per span of time was reduced.


What I'm suggesting is re-balancing the enemies, obstacles, rooms, and other elements of the game so that the average speed at which the player gets to their immediate goals is much lower. At the same time, because the player is moving slower, you would be able to safely multiply the amount of reward given at the player's various "destinations" so that they don't have to reach for said "destinations" nearly as many times.
By doing this you could reduce the occurrence of repeating combinations within a given span of time, reduce the number of trips in the same area before the player moves to a different area, and open up more opportunities to apply more complex traps and enemies more effectively.


Imagine if on your way to anything in AVWW you spent twice as much time in each room, but only had to go through half as many rooms to get something. Do you think the game would feel better?

[keith.lamothe]

Good tactical models typically require much lower speeds and much shorter ranges than would normally seem "cool", so in general I agree that slowing things down would actually increase the potential for fun and interesting combat.  But this isn't really my area

[x4000]

I think these are really valid points, and come out of the same sense that this mantis ticket does: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=8752

While the new leveling system is really great in a lot of respects, basically chewing through the scenery at such a ridiculous pace means that we have to have a ridiculous amount of scenery, so to speak.

Killing enemies in one shot is just plain FUN, unfortunately.  On the other hand, that doesn't give the enemy much of a chance to do much to you.  By the same token, if there's a big enemy that can't actually hurt you for whatever reason, but takes forever to kill, then that just feels grindy and slow.

So I'm not sure what a solution would be here at the moment.  I agree that there is something slightly off at the moment, but I also think that the current system is the best we've had yet.  That doesn't mean there's not room for further improvement, but the question remains is if we want to try to rush in some major changes like this before 1.2 (hmm... potential for shrapnel high) or simply go with the "it's better than before by quite a bit" method for now with 1.2, then take more time thinking this through with 1.3.

[BenMiff]

Here's the thing about slowing down, though: instead of going "I'm going to see this 10 times in the next hour", you instead see something annoying for the second time and go "I'm going to have to spend ten minutes dealing with this tedious bit"; the latter is far more annoying, to my mind. In addition, even with a higher award the longer everything takes the less you feel you're actually achieving.

To be honest, I like the current speed of play; for one it makes the world feel larger, and for two the game has a large amount (and growing) of content; content doesn't seem to repeat too significantly, and any bits that are less favourable tend to be dealt with quick enough for it not to become too annoying.

[Bluddy]

If any slowing down is needed, I'd say it would be so that monsters could keep up with the player in the surface chunks.

To me, the issue isn't necessarily the speed of consuming content. Rather, it's the amount of importance attached to any piece of content.

In a regular 2d scroller, every area has maximal importance for your survival. All content is important because the devs push you in the direction of the content, and you have to deal with it. It's a challenge that needs to be overcome in order to progress.

In AVWW, the openness of the world, and especially the amount of similar avenues that are open to you, neutralizes a lot of that challenge. This has been said before (including by me), but if I'm in a difficult cave that forces me to kill a boss before I can get some gems, it's a challenge only as long as I don't think about the fact that I can go to another cave in another chunk and get the same gems. This is much worse with buildings: suppose I go through a building, crafting an interesting narrative of overcoming different challenges as I go. I then exit the building, and a couple of steps to the left see a building that's almost identical. That's a real downer.

Too many buildings are being generated too close together. And too many similar challenges are available at the same time, making any one challenge unimportant. So content is just there to fly by -- none of it impacts my ability to advance in any significant way. If one avenue is more difficult, I can just switch to another avenue out of many available that happens to be easier. Even if I'm too lazy to switch, my mind knows that my situation isn't unique.

What can be done to ameliorate the situation? Imagine that gems cannot be randomly found in any cave in any appropriate region. Instead, I use some scanning magic back at the settlement to locate the gems. The magic finds one instance of gems in one specific cave. The pathway to that gem now becomes critical. Everything on the way to the gem is important, and is something I need to pay careful attention to. Similarly, stashes could be extremely rare. A rumor could direct me to a particular region that has a stash, and only one building would have one (and it could be appropriately protected).

[x4000]

I think that in 1.3 something along those lines would be worth exploring; though the death of "free exploration" is not something I'd want to see, either.

[Professor Paul1290]

Here's the thing about slowing down, though: instead of going "I'm going to see this 10 times in the next hour", you instead see something annoying for the second time and go "I'm going to have to spend ten minutes dealing with this tedious bit"; the latter is far more annoying, to my mind. In addition, even with a higher award the longer everything takes the less you feel you're actually achieving.

I think the latter would be easier to fix than the former.

Going through so much content so quickly does make annoying bits not hang around too long, but it doesn't let anything hang around too long, not even the fun bits. Everything ends up blending together and becomes rather homogenous because it's all mixed together so much.
This is hard to fix because it comes as a consequence of going through so many situations in rapid succession. Anything that gets added tends to get blended in a way where it has a hard time standing out.

Spending more time with certain enemy, room, and trap combinations does make annoying bits stick around, but it allows everything to stick around longer including the fun bits.
Stuff that is not fun can be better narrowed down and isolated from other stuff. Players get to become more familiar with specific enemies and traps, allowing for more complex enemies and traps without throwing things off. The game becomes less homogeneous and gets more contrasting highs and lows.

Many other good side-scrolling adventure games have "10 minute tedious bits", but they also get "10 minute awesome bits".
AVWW currently doesn't have that much of either, at least not with wandering around. Exploration outside of missions is mixed and blended together so much that it stays fairly neutral most of the time, which I think is a problem in itself.

What can be done to ameliorate the situation? Imagine that gems cannot be randomly found in any cave in any appropriate region. Instead, I use some scanning magic back at the settlement to locate the gems. The magic finds one instance of gems in one specific cave. The pathway to that gem now becomes critical. Everything on the way to the gem is important, and is something I need to pay careful attention to. Similarly, stashes could be extremely rare. A rumor could direct me to a particular region that has a stash, and only one building would have one (and it could be appropriately protected).

I do like the idea of having some semi-unique items you may have to go to a specific place to find. Something that would be more focused than free exploration but a bit more spontaneous than missions.

[Brise Bonbons]

I agree with the Prof that having true high points requires having some low points. You can't be afraid and try to design away every non-exciting or slow moment, it just makes things feel flat.

If the 10 minute tedious bits truly become an issue, work can be done to try to make them more interesting. I think Arcen should have faith that the fundamentals of the game are good enough that boring situations can be made interesting with tweaks. I mean, AVWW is fundamentally a good feeling platformer with satisfying combat mechanics; any changes are just matters of tweaking enemies, I don't think we're talking about total systems redesigns.

As to freeform exploration, again, I think the systems in place are solid enough that this can be encouraged without too much trouble via gifts, secret missions, upgrade orbs, and glyphs. Allowing resource locations for specific crafting materials to be identified would also remove the frustration of searching and searching for one specific material you want so you can finally craft flash of light 3.

Heck, make "locate resource" a guardian power you have to find randomly in stashes or secret missions.

Granted, it's easy to throw out solutions when you don't have to try to code them and balance them later. I trust Arcen will figure it out, though.

[Misery]

As I'd said in another topic, I like the way the game handles pacing as it is, at least for the most part.

I can understand Bluddy's complaints about stuff like "too many buildings".   Though I think about it more from a balance aspect (it's waaaaaayyyyyyyy too easy to get enchants in Abandoned Towns, for instance, because of all of those buildings having attics stuffed with chests).

But I dont think of it as stashes being trivialized by the presence of yet more buildings.   If I'm going in too many buildings, going after too many stashes..... that's my decision.  *I* am the one screwing up my own pacing, and perhaps causing things to get repetetive.   I think the game has been very, very good about this aspect;  oh, it's not PERFECT, but in comparison to many other games, it does this pretty darned well.   

Even something like, say, a cave.   I can blast through a given cave really fast if I want, with storm dash and whatever, and just find the next door.  OR, even in normal chunks, I can take some time, and explore a bit..... find things I need such as granite or iron or whatever.   The pacing changes dramatically based on exactly what I choose here.


At the same time, I do like the idea of some "special" items not being quite so everywhere..... the idea of using a scroll to spawn a "special" chunk somewhere in a cave or something, which would then contain the related item, is a pretty good one.  It could even always spawn a boss room in front of that chunk.   I think this'd be interesting.... the game would point out WHICH cave system, in which surface chunk, I need to now go to..... but that's it.   It would only point me that far.   I'd have to explore the cave to actually find the special chunk, and it'd be pretty rewarding to do this.

[Tobias]

Play the game on a higher difficulty. Congratulations, you now have to move slower and be more careful and take your time when clearing out rooms.

Casuals.

[Misery]

Play the game on a higher difficulty. Congratulations, you now have to move slower and be more careful and take your time when clearing out rooms.

Casuals.

Hah, even that depends on the player.

Even on TCO I still charge at everything and use Storm Dash for most short-range movements in or out of combat.


That being said though, I agree with the concept; this game really seems at it's best when it's on a high difficulty.  There's such a variety of spells, but on the lower ones..... you just dont need them, there's no incentive to diversify.  Not so on the higher ones!

Heck, playing on the 2 highest, I finally figured out what exactly to do with the Summoned Tornado spell;  completely and absolutely unnecessary on lower difficulties, and a waste of time, that spell, but not so on the higher ones.   I'm getting an idea as to what Dire Butterfly is for as well, though I think that one needs a damage increase (not too much of one, though). 

I didn't have reason to experiment with those on Adept or Hero.   Now I have, and it's been more interesting and enjoyable as a result.    Higher level combat takes more than just firing basic shots at everything and crashing through them.

[Professor Paul1290]

I was going to mention that the game seems to work far better at higher difficulty, but I kind of forgot partway through. 

That was actually what got me wondering about this to begin with. On higher difficulties, the game seems less repetitious to me despite things being the same otherwise because I'm not blasting through everything before it has a chance to do much.
You don't really get to "notice" the enemies and obstacles much when you're eating them like popcorn.

[Misery]

I was going to mention that the game seems to work far better at higher difficulty, but I kind of forgot partway through. 

That was actually what got me wondering about this to begin with. On higher difficulties, the game seems less repetitious to me despite things being the same otherwise because I'm not blasting through everything before it has a chance to do much.
You don't really get to "notice" the enemies and obstacles much when you're eating them like popcorn.

Aye, that's pretty much the case.

This is one of the reasons why I've always tended to complain alot about games that are too easy (and SO many console games lately are waaaaayyyyyy too easy).   The developers can brag about their awesome combat system and incredible depth and blah-de-blah-de-DAH, but if the game is easy, likely, I wont NEED most of the stuff in it to beat it quite handily, and I'm gonna get really bored, really fast.

[Yurka_Maku]

I actually agree with misery mostly. I guess i may be one of the few who actually spend some time actually looking for faster ways to eat through enemies, even when they do take a single hit to kill, mostly because once they increase, why not just make things more efficient and streamlined when it comes to my tactics on them. On my first time playing this game, i was focusing on one type of spell that just pelts them with shots and forget weaknesses, as i progressed, i found myself looking for faster ways to clean out the hostiles, and 90% of the time (and after getting a mouse with more buttons) I found myself spreading my spells on the hotbar more, unloading a larger array of spellgems onto the targets, (but found myself still using close range spells as item collection stuff) and spending less time dodging spells. All in all i guess i just like to broaden my focus to use different things inherently, then again, i get this feeling I'm one of the very few (if not only) who spends the time grinding away like its Monster Hunter, getting weapons for every occasion and Armor to match.

[darkchair]

I would say the big problem for this game right now is that it has no setting. There is no plot, no impact from the setting, no character development from NPCs, no purpose really except for "beat the boss", no outside agents. It makes this game a side scrolling shooter rather than an RPG.
The new settlement mechanics are a great step in the right direction, making your NPCs a part of the world. But more would of course be better.
And yes difficulty absolutely makes a difference. On TCO you need to pace your exploration and choose your battles. If you get in over your head, you are either dead or going to have to retreat to heal. It gives a sense of realism to the game, as opposed to lower difficulties where it's usually mindless grinding.

But slowing down the game... I would say a better fix is raising the difficulty of the game, and more importantly adding roadblocks to the game. A barricade with turrets you need to destroy before you can proceed to the next chunk, a worthless item you need to find to give to someone in order to enter a certain area, a pair of bosses who won't let you through until you settle their dispute somehow (with presents or persuasion or brute force or something), a machine you have to go down a cave system to find so that you can raise the bridge/magic portal/gate to the next chunk, gangs of high level enemies that may end up convincing you to find a different area to explore until you are stronger.
These encounters would break the monotony and hopefully add setting to the game as well. Not happening for a while of course but there's some ideas.
Also some more speech from NPCs as well as enemies would be great.