Author Topic: Such great potential!  (Read 2139 times)

Offline Epitaph64

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Such great potential!
« on: May 03, 2012, 02:25:25 am »
Since this is my first post here, let me preface it by saying that I really see a TON of great potential in this game. I don't want to come off as one to complain, I just want to offer another player's perspective on the game. That out of the way, I do think there is quite a lot of work to do to make this a great game. The game as it is right now has quite a lot of content, but for the pacing that the game sets, there isn't really enough in my opinion. I'm 8 hours in at the moment and I'm still slaughtering tons of elementals and robot warriors. This has to be my biggest gripe so far with the game.

Now, I know creating new monster types is a lot of work, but I think some things could be done to reduce the grind a bit. Some quick ideas: monster kill quests, loot drops, soul collection, bestiary with kill counts, or all of the above. Interpret it as you will. Either way, there needs to be more dopamine flowing out of my brain while I play. Just having a page I can go to look at all discovered (i.e. killed) monster types with the kill count for each would be nice.

Really, I feel that if you guys stick to this game and keep adding new and fun things to it, it will be amazing. This type of game gains exponential improvements when new content is added due to the random nature. Right now, it feels like the game is this amazing engine with all these systems to generate things but with only a handful of elements to place.

Offline Misery

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 04:56:36 am »
Since this is my first post here, let me preface it by saying that I really see a TON of great potential in this game. I don't want to come off as one to complain, I just want to offer another player's perspective on the game. That out of the way, I do think there is quite a lot of work to do to make this a great game. The game as it is right now has quite a lot of content, but for the pacing that the game sets, there isn't really enough in my opinion. I'm 8 hours in at the moment and I'm still slaughtering tons of elementals and robot warriors. This has to be my biggest gripe so far with the game.

Now, I know creating new monster types is a lot of work, but I think some things could be done to reduce the grind a bit. Some quick ideas: monster kill quests, loot drops, soul collection, bestiary with kill counts, or all of the above. Interpret it as you will. Either way, there needs to be more dopamine flowing out of my brain while I play. Just having a page I can go to look at all discovered (i.e. killed) monster types with the kill count for each would be nice.

Really, I feel that if you guys stick to this game and keep adding new and fun things to it, it will be amazing. This type of game gains exponential improvements when new content is added due to the random nature. Right now, it feels like the game is this amazing engine with all these systems to generate things but with only a handful of elements to place.


As you play further and further into the game, you WILL start meeting up with more monster types.   Quite a number of them require unlocking first;  and then there's also the "elites", which can be entirely different threats than the original forms.  Like bats..... normal bats are vaguely annoying, but the bloody fire bats, or worse, the sonic bats, are entirely different stories altogether.

And just wait till you run into something like the crashed ships;  THOSE are sure interesting to fight.   Particularly if you've got bloody espers floating around adding to the projectile count.


Some enemies also change alot at higher tiers.   Lightning Espers, for example, at low tiers arent too much of a threat.  At high tiers though, firing a spreadshot of 3 bolts at once, those things are an absolute terror if you have to deal with them in narrow areas, due to the way their bolts travel.

I'm still in the first continent myself, but even there I've got quite a selection of monsters unlocked (I just reached the horrible green fairies for the first time...... ugh.  Just wait'll you meet THOSE things.)


Though, the game DOES have a habit of spawning espers EVERYWHERE.   Espers are by far the most common enemy type in the game.  Some of them are nastier than others, but they're still floating energy balls with projectiles of various sorts.

.....also, why havent we seen any elite espers?   That thought just suddenly occurred to me.



You're right though, this game's potential is just incredible.  Frankly, this is already one of my favorite indie games, and also just one of my favorite games of any sort.   I put it right up there with Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress, and I almost NEVER say that about any game.   This one really is something special though.

It's already that freaking good, and it JUST CAME OUT.   I cant even imagine what it'll be like a year down the road.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 05:09:12 am »
Just think of Espers like basic goombas.  They're prolific and are fodder for while you're wandering between better fighters. :)
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline MouldyK

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 06:30:11 am »
...loot drops, soul collection, bestiary...



"...As with previous titles in the series, Aria introduces a new magic system Tactical Soul System. Each of 110 enemies in the game may provide a unique soul upon their defeat, depending on the player's luck. Once collected, souls may be equipped, granting new abilities...."


You rang? :P

Damn, I loved that game when I frst played it. :)

Offline Quaix

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 08:00:23 am »
Quote
Either way, there needs to be more dopamine flowing out of my brain while I play.

I agree 100%, but the developers are adamantly opposed to having loot drops or any kind of rewards from monster kills. They say they don't want players to grind monsters. As if putting a small reward for monster kills will turn players into skinnerean rats, sitting in one place killing monsters until they starve to death.

From what I gather the developers experimented with loot drops from monsters during the beta and it didn't work.

Which reminds me of my old job -- any time someone would have a great idea it would be shot down because it was tried in the past and it failed. And every time I heard that I would think to myself "It failed because your implementation of the idea sucked"

Offline omegajasam

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 08:03:04 am »
Early game monster verity is probably my biggest gripe with the game. You unlock a lot of cool stuff eventualy, but when 90% of the game is an esper, it's not an inspiring start.

Offline Quaix

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 09:04:15 am »
Speaking of dopamine, I was just playing UFO Afterlight and I would like to compare the two games in terms of how the player is rewarded for their actions.

In UFO afterlight:
 - Scientists and engineers in your base are always working on something, such as researching new technologies and making new items in a production line
 - Not only do they get better as they level up, which they do naturally, you can spend level up points to specialize them further
 - Same goes for soldiers on combat missions.
 - In the base you can build variety of buildings, each offering a substantial improvement
 - You can expand your zone of influence and then build resource mines, which you need in varying amounts for new technologies. Want to expand territory even farther? Better get that research going, because you're going to need new space suits which can handle some of the harsher environments.
 - The world is dynamic. Allies are conquering unoccupied territories and enemies are trying to take over yours. Time is a commodity.
 - With enough research, manufacturing and scavanging, you can build your own robotic squadmembers to send on combat missions. They level up and learn new skills like humans.
 - As you get farther and farther into the game, new and much tougher enemy types appear. You have to keep developing your characters and researching new technology just to keep up.
 - Each enemy you kill drops something, even if it's just a corpse to take back to your base to have the scientists dissect it and possibly develop new technologies from it. You can get enemy guns that they drop, but you have no idea how to use them! But you keep them in your base and way later in the game you can research them and have your squad use them after some training.
 
All of these things are inherently rewarding. There's a sense of progress in multiple areas. Research, manufacturing, leveling up, loot, conquering territory and throughout that all you have storyline events which change your gameplay landscape significantly.

The two games are significantly different: one is a platformer and the other is a strategy game. However, I see enough similarities from which AVWW could benefit.

 - NPCs in town could provide some passive benefit in addition to guardian scrolls. Maybe the aquaurgist would give +5% attack strength for every level of his skill. And +5% HP for every level of the apothecary NPC. Others could give a small debuff to monsters on the continent, or let you use enchant containers more efficiently (bigger % gets filled with each). I'm sure something could be thought up.
 - I think the game would benefit from another dimension of character development. It already has enchants and spells, but I'm thinking more along the lines of traditional levels and experience. Those green orbs would give experience in addition to healing. I want to emphasize that the effect could be minor, such as you get to choose +1% hp/attack/mana each level. So by the time you fought the overlord, assuming you didn't die with that character on that continent, you'd be maybe at level 10. The first few levels could be easy to get, but the latter ones would get exponentially harder. There would be no point in grinding xp because of the steeply diminishing returns.
 - The wind dynamic needs a lot more work. First push back the wind with wind shelters, then restore the space time shattering by building space-time stabilizers.. Return the whole continent to its own time period!
 - More time sensitive missions. Have monsters try and move in from the windy regions, and if you don't do the mission to push them back, the tile would get wind.
 - New enemy types should appear based on your overall progress on the continent.
 - Enemy loot. I really love the enchant system, but I dread going down into cave systems to gather spell components because I don't get enchants there.


Offline bvchaosinc

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 09:24:43 am »
The game in general has issues with its unlock pace.  If you do the tutorial start you are basically one whole play through(assuming new continent is new game+) away from anything interesting.  Well expect for urban crawlers those guys are cool and fast to unlock. 

I too find lack of kill reward extremely undermining to me enjoying the game, but apparently the baddies are their to be obstacles and having them reward the player in any meaning full way would make them fun to fight and take away from the obstacle-ness of them, or at least that's how I am understanding it.   

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 10:21:09 am »
I too find lack of kill reward extremely undermining to me enjoying the game, but apparently the baddies are their to be obstacles and having them reward the player in any meaning full way would make them fun to fight and take away from the obstacle-ness of them, or at least that's how I am understanding it.   

Not quite, the problem with having monster drop say enchant percentages is that players will want to kill every single monster they see in any given chunk in order to farm enchants. Then, there will be even more complaints that the game is grindy because all they will be doing is killing enemies and not progressing in the game.

Offline bvchaosinc

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 10:27:16 am »
See, this I really don't understand.  I all ready farm enchants, and I will not believe I am the only one, or that their are few like me.  The method under which you can currently farm enchants does not progress the game in any way.  So what is wrong with not progressing the game through killing vs not progressing the game through running from house to house room to room.   

Offline madcow

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 11:16:22 am »
Its definitely in the best interest of AVWW to have tons of enemy variety at the beginning, if nothing else then to get more people playing the demo to buy the full game. I'm sure future updates will unveil new enemies and its not exactly a trivial addition.

Offline Epitaph64

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Re: Such great potential!
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 11:18:28 am »
I too find lack of kill reward extremely undermining to me enjoying the game, but apparently the baddies are their to be obstacles and having them reward the player in any meaning full way would make them fun to fight and take away from the obstacle-ness of them, or at least that's how I am understanding it.   

Not quite, the problem with having monster drop say enchant percentages is that players will want to kill every single monster they see in any given chunk in order to farm enchants. Then, there will be even more complaints that the game is grindy because all they will be doing is killing enemies and not progressing in the game.

I understand that side of things, but I think that with enough negative impacts of grinding those areas for too long, it would work. What if the warlord sent an attack at the town or could build wind-creation devices that would have to be stopped (think a mission with 10 hours to complete or else X bad effect will occur.) Then the player will want to progress to the point of killing him. I don't think that monsters should give enchant percentages though since there's already a fine system for that and it would devalue those items.

EDIT: What if armies of monsters spread out from the warlord's castle from time to time? You'd have to go to the tile and do a mission to destroy the army and if it made it to the town, you'd have to do a town defense mission (potentially losing a few survivors, so you'd want to avoid it.) This would make people fear the warlord more and want to get to the point that they can destroy him.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 12:54:19 pm by Epitaph64 »