Poll

Which mana redesign do you prefer?

Mana Recharge
1 (4.5%)
Mana-less Combos
1 (4.5%)
Mana-As-Ammo
4 (18.2%)
Hybrid Mana Recharge And Mana-As-Ammo
10 (45.5%)
Elemental Heat/Cooldown
4 (18.2%)
Some other idea that I'll describe below
2 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Which mana redesign do you prefer?  (Read 10833 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 07:04:17 pm »
Maybe it's a question of there just not being enough spells in the game yet. Maybe if all the spells we have now plus a couple others in this "weight class" were ammo-less, but there were 3 or 4 times more spells that used ammo, we'd get the effect I am thinking about.


That's more or less what I'm thinking, too.  Though a lot of things like ice cross, death touch, meteor shower, etc, would also need ammo at present.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 09:04:53 pm »
Just cast a vote for the hybrid system --- I definitely favor having some megaspells with more opportunity cost than a twenty-second wait.

I really like the mission ammo idea, but I'm a little worried that it would interact badly with freeform exploration --- wouldn't it kind of force you to stay on the mission path, because you could get in trouble on the mission if you wasted your ammo in caves or rare commodity towers or lava flats or whatever other challenging thing you want to go through on your own time, as it were?

I'm definitely against getting ammo primarily though rare drops in stash rooms --- I remember crafting books, which were a pain.  I think I might favor there being some predictable but challenging place to get a stock of ammo, akin to how we get spellgems now.  Perhaps that would be a good use for major buildings like pyramids that contain mazes single minibosses but currently no special reward?

Offline Olreich

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 09:25:02 pm »
I hate ammo. I hate it rather strongly. It has two main types to it: the ammo that is abundant, or farm-able, like in most RPGs with arrows, and the ammo that is finite and thus un-farm-able. I dislike the latter more than the former. The reasons I hate these are pretty simple, with the former, it's useless, and/or tedious, because I will farm it if I have to use it, or it won't be any barrier to using whatever weapon I want. Farming is tedious, and having too much abundance adds an unnecessary and rather stupid system, taking up inventory or UI space I'd rather other things be present for.

AVWW has a form of abundant ammo right now. It's those scrolls you never use, outside of emit light, heal, and mana scrolls, which you use so you don't have to hunt for potions and so you can see in caves/buildings.

Ammo in finite amounts makes me want to scream, usually very loudly. Survival Horror games suck ENTIRELY because of their ammunition system meaning that you need foreknowledge to not know when to horde and when not to, and massive tedium if it's infinite but very hard to get, and is ultimately unreliable since it is usually fairly hard to keep track of (especially true as ammo types increase).

If AVWW implements ammo for big spells that's very finite, they will never get used (like, once every 10-20 hours of gameplay). If you bump up to abundant, they will get used all the time. There's a VERY small space for not too finite and not too abundant where you get them used at 1-2 every few hours. Also, the more ammo types there are, and the more spells there are, the greater the hording/tedium, and the greater the balancing issue (as all big spells will have to be valued equally within a single ammo type/value, else some will never get used because there are bigger bangs for the same buck).

Ammo puts things on different scales, which becomes a nightmare to balance. It encourages hording, or adds unneeded complexity based on abundance. It also ultimately complicates the load-out part of the gameplay, without much change for the action part of the gameplay (which seems to be the portion that was supposed to be adjusted).

If you want to change how the action works, you need to change the system to something more interesting than cooldowns and ammunition. There's a system in GURPS roleplaying that puts random catastrophic effects from drawing too heavily on magic. In that system you have a medium point that as you go over can cause bad things to happen. Example: Median of 7, you cast a spell at 9 magic, you could have it backfire, you cast a spell at 75 mana, the region could be obliterated, including you and your party. That was the coolest magic system I've ever played in. Another is the earlier suggestions from Kieth and superking and I about making that fast-regen idea plus some ability to start killing yourself for drawing too much over your limit. You could also have magical power/capability based on followers that give you said power (black and white).

That's all I have off the top of my head. But seriously, ammunition sucks. It's a headache waiting to happen, and it's not going to make basic spells any more fun than the current (essentially unlimited) mana situation.

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 09:32:25 pm »
I dunno, what if we don't call it ammo but "spell scrolls"?  Those are a big thing in Western RPGs, and I certainly use them there.  Especially if you get it per mission as X suggested, you'd presumably pretty much know when you're at the chokepoints of a mission --- I imagine something like crazy horde of trash mobs halfway through, major boss at the end --- and you'd use them then.  Right?

Offline Olreich

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 09:43:24 pm »
I don't use spell scrolls outside of convenience in Western RPGs either. If I were to get ammo per mission, and have it be "enough" then yes, I'd use them as needed. But if I had to go out, find the ammo, and then use it whenever I see the need, I'd start coming up with different ways to beat the boss, because on the next one, or the next group of monsters I'll need it. If I do use it, I'll instantly have cause to go get more, and will probably do so until they are maxed out again (like you do in FPSes with reloading and regearing, you ALWAYS fill up, because you don't know what's around the corner).

For me to actually use said ammo, it would have to be essentially given to me, without any effort, and then it'd again, do nothing to fix the current mana system being boring, outside giving a maximum limit on the big spells.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2011, 10:02:53 pm »
Olreich, I think the goal of ammo is like a game of Skee Ball.  You put in your money and get 9 balls to get the best score you can.  You cannot add more balls during the game, but you can play as many times as you want.  Ammo is intended to limit how much you have to overcome a small set of challenges.  If you fail to overcome the challenge, you can generally restock and try again.  Ammo isn't intended to be an "entire game career" limit like it is in horror games, but rather a limit to smaller challenges, possibly even just per mission.

Offline Olreich

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2011, 10:28:27 pm »
Fair enough, but I don't think ammo will fix the overarching problem with the current mana system.

The problems brought up were:

4. Mana is important for making there be an opportunity cost to using spells.  If a spell is really powerful but also really expensive in mana, then you have to weigh that against weaker-but-cheaper spells.  This is hugely important for balance of the player side of this game.

5. Mana is also important, like health, for limiting the length of expeditions and making it so that you have to return to settlements every so often to re-kit and prepare for a new expedition.  There's a fine line, though, between returning too often and not often enough.  Players should be self-sufficient in the field for a goodly while, but not forever.  There's a lot of thematic and gameplay reasons for that, but I don't really wish to enumerate them all right at the moment (this is long enough already!).


Opportunity cost only exists when to get something, you have to give up something else. There's also the problem of limiting expedition length. For ammo to work well with these strictures, you have to have few ammo types with mana possible big spells (to make you give up one big spell for another), and then you have to have a total ammo limit that allows for you to be good in the field for awhile, but not forever. I take this to mean something like those newfangled core missions. So, in the core mission, you can fire X big spells, and have to choose between them. You have opportunity cost also in using them early or late in the mission, only on bosses, or saving health by killing a large mob with one. However, this means that you either have to farm for ammo outside of core missions (tedious and boring), or you get it handed back to you on a reload, which means you blast off your big spells all the time when you can go back to your magic ammo box for the side missions.

In any system, you can't have many types of ammo, and you can't make it tedious to re-arm, and you can't expect anything but the major bosses to have any challenge then. But even if you do overcome that, and make the opportunity cost viable for side-missions, the only thing you change is the big spells and you make the smaller spells even less interesting as they have no scarcity.

An ammo system I could get behind would be using the shards we already have in game (that drop all the time and you have thousands of). Big spells would take ridiculous amounts of shards, but would allow you to do massive damage very fast, whereas overall, the smaller, cheaper spells would be better if you could fire them over several minutes. That creates opportunity cost for all spells, and gives ammo that is abundant for cheap spells and scarce for big spells. It would also encourage killing enemies with the appropriate spells (as you can net bigger gains). Of course, this is also imminently farm-able, but it at least makes the farming somewhat interesting. The part of the problem it doesn't cover is that you never have any reason to go home, just to keep going and fighting. There's no need for recovery, just farming.

As always, the best thing I've heard of yet has been offering up some heat effects like those of plasma weapons in Halo, without unnecessary complexity adding in multiple heat types, instead offering up better ramifications for hitting your "limit". This covers opportunity cost (big spells will overheat you), but also takes out the need to go back to the settlement. That's why I suggested the overheating making you lose health, as that would give you reasons to go home and recover.

EDIT: Actually, looking over that first post on redesigning health and mana again, I saw the "mana tank" idea, and keeping mana the same as it is now. That would work pretty well too, though would be more bland than some of our other crazy ideas.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:30:59 pm by Olreich »

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2011, 10:55:21 pm »
Side-note about big spells: Are there plans to introduce major spells for things besides basic damage?  One thing that would make the opportunity cost of casting a big spell more important would be having a few choices about how to use it --- being able to use the same ammo for dealing a shit-ton of damage, or for protecting yourself or emergency healing or maybe making yourself invisible for a while.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2011, 11:24:30 am »
Olreich, I've been mildly uncomfortable about the ammo idea, despite having been in favor of the hybrid solution, but I couldn't quite put my finger on all the reasons why until you mentioned it all.  You're right, it would be a really big hassle to balance and a lot of complexity for the player (new inventory screen, new thing to learn about as a new player, new thing to complicate the core mission concept, new stuff to collect when you'd rather be doing missions, etc).  It's just a chore, nothing strategic, but the one saving grace of it was that it was a way to limit the utility of mega-spells.  But your mentions about other consequences as in the GURPS system (which I used to play a moderate amount of, mainly Vampire and Werewolf) is a really good point.

I will need to take some time this morning to write up my full thoughts about this, but I think you've basically provided the push in the right direction that I was looking for, and that explains why I was unable to come up with a "full design notes" post that I was happy with yesterday.  Thanks for that!

Side-note about big spells: Are there plans to introduce major spells for things besides basic damage?  One thing that would make the opportunity cost of casting a big spell more important would be having a few choices about how to use it --- being able to use the same ammo for dealing a shit-ton of damage, or for protecting yourself or emergency healing or maybe making yourself invisible for a while.

I think it's moot now, as I now definitely don't plan any ammo.  But I do plan some interesting ways to get into the opportunity cost that you are talking about, even without ammo, so stay tuned. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Which mana redesign do you prefer?
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2011, 01:19:38 pm »
Okay, a new topic is replacing this one, so I'm going to lock this one to move the conversation to the new one only: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,9543.0.html

As noted in the new topic, feel free to cross-quote or whatever else, I'm not trying to quash the discussion from this thread but I do want to avoid having the current discussion on the mana system split into multiple threads.  Thanks again for all the thoughts!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!