Author Topic: Stealth Assassinations  (Read 4962 times)

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 11:38:42 am »
Nothing wrong with dropping light sources periodically, in theory. But it is part of the overall problem of juggling too many spells at once. If ball of light is your primary light source, you're probably going to want to be able to cast it every few seconds, which means most likely putting it on a place of honor on the mouse... but there you also have to fit your primary ranged spell, and primary melee, and your backups for those when things are highly resistant to whatever element your primaries use. And of course a shield spell for quick emergencies and oh no I'm out of buttons. And I also like to fit in splash-back (whatever it's called... water bursty thingy... extremely useful spell) so I already sacrifice one of those buttons to that.

Anyway, I'm thinking some sort of alternative system for using spells might be useful down the road (especially since the number of spells will only keep growing), but I know the game's on the final stretch towards getting a release version ready and the focus is on more enemies and such, so I'll worry about bringing this up post 1.0 and just keep using light emitting enchants for now. :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 11:51:57 am »
Oh, that's definitely true!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 02:15:35 pm »
I am more wondering what the point of the Lamp items is, then.

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2012, 02:17:59 pm »
I am more wondering what the point of the Lamp items is, then.

If anything, lamp items should be more powerful than Ball of Light now, since they come in relatively limited supply.

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2012, 02:20:40 pm »
Perhaps it could light up an entire room? I would go mantis that but I'm at work and don't have time for it right now...

Offline Bluddy

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 02:21:42 pm »
Nothing wrong with dropping light sources periodically, in theory. But it is part of the overall problem of juggling too many spells at once. If ball of light is your primary light source, you're probably going to want to be able to cast it every few seconds, which means most likely putting it on a place of honor on the mouse... but there you also have to fit your primary ranged spell, and primary melee, and your backups for those when things are highly resistant to whatever element your primaries use. And of course a shield spell for quick emergencies and oh no I'm out of buttons. And I also like to fit in splash-back (whatever it's called... water bursty thingy... extremely useful spell) so I already sacrifice one of those buttons to that.

Anyway, I'm thinking some sort of alternative system for using spells might be useful down the road (especially since the number of spells will only keep growing), but I know the game's on the final stretch towards getting a release version ready and the focus is on more enemies and such, so I'll worry about bringing this up post 1.0 and just keep using light emitting enchants for now. :)

I highly recommend trying the keyboard-only option. I've said this before, but I find the mouse gives only a minimal advantage. If you're on a desktop, using WASD to move and the numpad buttons to cast is a good choice, giving you 10 possible spells that are easily accessible. If you're on a laptop, I recommend the arrow keys to move and the WASD area keys for spells, giving you 9 easily accessible spells.

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 02:28:05 pm »
I'd say dark areas should be absolute black, otherwise you end up like Doom 3 where people just turn up the screen brightness to crazy levels to see in the dark. Terraria's darkness goes down to absolute black and that keeps things hidden on the screen until the player gets a light source to it. Of course Terraria's light sources don't cover nearly as much screen space as AVWW's...

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 02:59:16 pm »
I'd say dark areas should be absolute black, otherwise you end up like Doom 3 where people just turn up the screen brightness to crazy levels to see in the dark. Terraria's darkness goes down to absolute black and that keeps things hidden on the screen until the player gets a light source to it. Of course Terraria's light sources don't cover nearly as much screen space as AVWW's...

I understand the sentiment, but a couple of points:

1. If someone wants to do that, who does it hurt?

2. Turning up brightness in the doom 3 sense is not possible, as this is not a true lighting model.  The only thing you can do is increase monitor brightness.  I play at max monitor brightness already, and I can tell you that it's not a playstyle that anyone would validly be able to choose for very long.

3. In general we structure the game and enchants so that you don't have to choose between a light source and something more useful.  Most of the time you can find a light source on something useful if you look long enough, and if you don't wind up finding that, then you can still use ball of light and similar instead for a while.

4. Increasing the darkness values doesn't have the effect you'd think, because of the way that we are creating the darkness.  What we're doing has 0% in common with lighting models in most games -- rather, it's a graphical trick.  Various top-down zombie games that simulate "line of sight" type darkness also use graphical tricks to do their darkness, for similar reasons, although their methods are a bit different from ours.

Thus comparing it to something standard like doom 3 (which uses actual GPU-style lighting) is kind of irrelevant, and talking about making it darker actually makes it more soupy and strange-looking rather than just making it actually darker.  See early videos of the darkness when the game was still top-down for an extreme example of what I mean on the soupy-nature.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 04:50:26 pm »
If anything, lamp items should be more powerful than Ball of Light now, since they come in relatively limited supply.

I don't think this is the case. I find being able to see almost as important as getting around. The platforms we get are in "limited" supply, though I have honestly never come close to running out. If half of the wooden platform drops were changed to lamps, I could see moving the Ball of Light spell to a tier 2 or 3 "convenience" spell. Maybe add in a spell for magical platforms as well.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2012, 04:53:00 pm »
The lamps have one added advantage: you can place them wherever, and they fall.  So you can drop them down holes, for instance, to light places you can't yet see.  You can't do that with ball of light.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 04:53:34 pm »
But wouldn't it be more interesting to have a single use lamp that lights up a whole room, but comes in short supply? It would differentiate it from the light balls that only light up a small area and make them nice when you find them in a cache.

Edit: This was more supposed to be a response to the post above Chris, oops. But in relation to that, you can also drop the light snake down holes, right? So it has that ability already. But again I'm playing on an old world with tons of things unlocked, so I'm not sure how readily available the light spells are in the normal progression path.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 05:04:39 pm by BobTheJanitor »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 04:54:02 pm »
The lamps have one added advantage: you can place them wherever, and they fall.  So you can drop them down holes, for instance, to light places you can't yet see.  You can't do that with ball of light.
Now I just need to pack a few explosives into a lamp...
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Penumbra

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 05:06:49 pm »
... you can drop them down holes, for instance, to light places you can't yet see.  You can't do that with ball of light.

How have I never thought of that! Now I am going to have to bind both of these things... Please add in the ability to bind the first ~4 skill bars to the keys soon!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2012, 05:14:44 pm »
Please add in the ability to bind the first ~4 skill bars to the keys soon!

And this is why I think alternate spell casting access is going to be needed eventually... All these great utility spells that you might not need at a moment's notice, but that shouldn't take more than a second to get to. They may not need to be instant, like your primary combat abilities, but if you have to shuffle menus every time you want to cast a different type of light source, it'll just take too long. But say you could right click, and have a circular menu of all kinds of spell categories, and then go to the lights menu, and it pops out another circular menu around that for lamps and snakes and globes and every type of light spell... eh I'm just dreaming here, but it would be neat. No doubt something about unity would make it an impossible nightmare to implement.  :P

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Stealth Assassinations
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2012, 06:11:35 pm »
There's nothing about Unity involved in our GUI or interfaces in AVWW anymore, thankfully.  The only two considerations would be textboxes and text areas, and the rest is all custom to us.

In terms of radial menus like you describe, they are something I rather dislike, though, so I can't see doing it.  If you need quick access to a light spell right now, it's a two-press method: hit Z to open full inventory, then right-click the spell in question to cast it, then Z to close.  Or leave your full inventory up all the time, if you only have a few rows and a big screen, and just right-click extra stuff whenever you want.

Why we'd need to go into nested radial menus, which are incredibly un-usable in my opinion, is beyond me. ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!