Author Topic: Staying the Course  (Read 1484 times)

Offline Drjones013

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Staying the Course
« on: April 28, 2012, 03:01:32 pm »
AVWW has made a lot of sales and with that comes a large player base. That player base seems to be coming from a number of directions, each liking different genres, and AVWW has tried to toe the line between at least several of the major genres. There are some who argue that AVWW is more of a strategy game (and it does indeed have AI War-style elements), some say it's more of a side-scroller, but it definitely is ambitious. With that ambition comes an equal danger of ambiguity.

We've all been throwing out a number of ideas but I'd like to take a moment to tell x4000 and the rest of the staff: stay the course. This game is a dangerous but intriguing mix of ideas which normally wouldn't work together and, even though a lot of comments are popping up with criticism and demands, the game is (iirc) approaching AI War already for sales figures. There are enough good (and bad) reviews out there to inform the public and the game is making sales based off of Steam presence and the strength of the beta from PAX. Too drastic of a change could result in the game losing that 'Arcen-ness' and AVWW will suffer because of it.

The changes to upgrade stones may not make sense for other games-- it's a diminishing returns model to discourage people from min-maxing and a very Arcen-like response given the 'balance' aspects of AI War (and even Tidalis if one looks hard enough). The player range gets nerfed-- the game was never meant to be 'look at numbers go down while you hold down a key and minimally interact with combat.' The mix of elites was a good move, frankly; it addressed a challenge issue and did it in a better way. It did so while still keeping true to the original concept. The beta that quite a few people participated in works and deviating too far from it could have serious consequences to future sales.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive from peer-review myself (it's been one of those semesters) but seeing AVWW spread its wings from concept to reality has been a true joy. I want to see Arcen continue to succeed (and I want that new expansion for AI War, dash gummit). You're still doing a fine job.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 06:58:47 pm »
I approve of all of that. AVWW might have had some major, drastically different changes from ye olde v.0.500 (anyone remember profession books? ;)), but like everything, if it isn't broke, you don't need to fix it. Certainly could do with more spells and such, but thats more of a patience thing than anything else.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 07:12:02 pm »
the game is (iirc) approaching AI War already for sales figures.
Oh, nowhere near that.  It's grossed maybe between 1/9th and 1/8th of what AIW has grossed.  And it has already passed Tidalis by quite a bit.

But yea: we're not really looking to do major reinventions of core systems.  Some will probably happen because we become aware of a better way of handing something than occurred to us before (upgrade stones is one of those, and even there the basic function of the system is the same, it's just different numbers, albeit radically different numbers).

That said, we're all about continuing to improve this game.  Both in relatively "tame" ways (more enemies, more spells, more missions, etc), and more ambitious ways (upgrade overhaul, combat-range overhaul, addition of elites and overhauling it, etc).  And that doesn't even get into the big things we'd like to do in expansions, etc :)

We've learned from AIW (specifically the run from 3.7 to 5.0) that while it is rare to see a game and game community experiencing problems because of too much developer interaction, it can happen.  It can happen pretty hard.  So we're conscious of that as well.  One of the benefits of having both AIW and AVWW is that we can let one of them "rest" a bit with relatively slow updates (once every week or two) so the players don't get exhausted while we go full-bore on the other.  I'm not sure if it will work out that way, but it's one possibility.

One thing we're all dealing with right now is a fairly large influx of new people to the forum who don't know much about Arcen or this community.  Mostly it's doing fine, but it's definitely an adjustment for everyone.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 11:57:42 pm »
Cheers, thanks for that. One of the things I'm really having to battle lately is people suggesting large and wildly divergent changes to the game. Sometimes that's just a factor of folks not having a crystal ball to be able to read my intentions. Other times it's because they wish this game were some other blend of genres that it's not.

I'm not at any risk of succumbing to those sorts of suggestions, don't worry. But a nearly equally destructive thing has been happening the last week: I've been spending huge amounts of my time arguing for why something works the way it does or defending why I don't care to do it some other way. What I need to do is stop getting into those discussions. It's not a productive use of my time, and it means that everyone is getting fewer features implemented.

I'm a speed reader and I read pretty much everything that comes through mantis in particular. Some ideas just get shelved for later but I like them. Others I don't like and are tempting to get into arguments/discussions about. That's the part I need to stop doing, especially when it was an off the cuff suggestion from one person.

That's not an attempt to try to withdraw from the community, but I only have so many hours in the day and presumably you guys would prefer that as many of them as possible go to making new stuff for you rather than debating features I have no intention of implementing in the first place. So that's what I'm going to do.

That said, if a suggestion seems to be getting the cold shoulder and you think it deserves more attention, rally support for it! If a lot of players are all thinking something is a problem, that sends a clearer message and it's probably time for me to enter the discussion more directly. Beyond that... I am just finding that I can no longer respond to every single suggestion because there are so many coming these days.

The other thing I'd like to note is that I'm looking for ways to enhance the current game, not reinvent it. Very drastic shifts to how exploration or progression works, how crafting is balanced or similar, are not things I'm particularly interested in. I feel like those things are working well, and the main flaw there is that we need more spells (including diversity there) as well as more enemies, more missions, more things to explore and find, etc. Beyond that I have even more goals, but most involve the addition of new stuff and almost none of it involves the yet-again reinvention of what is already here. I think that's a misperception that some hold given how radically we kept changing things in beta; but the reason we kept changing ai radically in beta was to get to a solid design at this point where we wouldn't have a need to keep yanking the rug out from under players.

Put another way, our first post-release huge reinvention of ai war was version 4.0. We lost some players in doing that, but it was two years after the game had come out and it drew on lots of long term accumulated knowledge about he game at that point. Also AI War 1.0 was much rougher than AVWW 1.0. To my mind, this game has already seen its 4.0-style transition and I hope that what we see is continual refinement and expansion rather than a fundamental reinvention at some point. Never say never, but from where I currently sit that is where my head is at.

Anyway, so thanks for the kind words of encouragement! We have a pretty unique vision for this game and in a lot of respects only the tip of the iceberg is showing at the moment. Many of the new mechanics will need inevitable reinvention after being introduced (just look at elites this week), and heck various existing features will need polish also (anachronism and windstorm missions recently, for instance), but that's different from trying to fundamentally alter the nature of what is already here.

Hope that helps clarify things!
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2012, 01:59:01 am »
Remember that one phase of Ai war, when you gutted my beloved Dreadnaughts?

Still in shock about that. But the whole transition from slimdx to unity was HUGE too.

(then again, I'm not actually sure if I care to do much Aiwar post 4.0 - I think I would qualify was a player lost, but I've still got my eye on things always..)

Anyway. Yeah. On topic. Nice to see AVWW has already successfully made it through its midlife crisis. I think that was the topic. Can we murder meteor shower missions now?
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Offline Drjones013

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2012, 02:13:18 am »
the game is (iirc) approaching AI War already for sales figures.
Oh, nowhere near that.  It's grossed maybe between 1/9th and 1/8th of what AIW has grossed.  And it has already passed Tidalis by quite a bit.

Meant to-date, not overall, but I've been up to my eyeballs talking about anthropology and other-not-for-a-public-forum research on certain aspects of human behavior. Sorry for the omission and I hope to see this thing go on for three more years.

Well, longer, but three more years is catchy.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2012, 04:14:15 am »
We've all been throwing out a number of ideas but I'd like to take a moment to tell x4000 and the rest of the staff: stay the course. This game is a dangerous but intriguing mix of ideas which normally wouldn't work together and, even though a lot of comments are popping up with criticism and demands, the game is (iirc) approaching AI War already for sas figures.

Well said.

This is not my preferred genre and not necessarily my favorite game (yet).  However, you're ABSOLUTELY right.  If this was something else, something that didn't try to play mix and match with a number of different elements that I see tons of potential with, I'd have wrote it off already.  This is still... well... cool.  It's different.

Thanks Jones, I couldn't find the words.  Even if I left tomorrow it's cool knowing a game that even attempted this exists.  Knowing Arcen, in particular what I've learned so far of Chris and Keith... if I came back in a year it'd just be cooler.  Different?  Well, duh, yeah.  However, they know what they're doing, what they're trying to do, and as I've found in AI War... sometimes it's just a matter of waiting a bit.

My own version:

Chris, Keith, and Josh: You make very interesting games.  Sometimes they're not a particular flavor I enjoy at that moment in development, but they're always... always... worth investing in you guys so far.

Thanks.  Please don't stop doing what you do.
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Offline icepick37

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Re: Staying the Course
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2012, 06:06:14 pm »
Yes, please! I am playing through the demo now and will probably soon be a customer. It's quite unlike anything I've ever played before. Keep doing your thing!