Spell Balance

[BobTheJanitor]

I was confused by what DPSPM represented when it was originally proposed, and I remain confused still. I'd rather see a mana per sec. measurement if anything to allow me to easily compare efficiency. Right now you have to compare the cost to the recast time manually to get that number.

[Terraziel]

The devs were the ones who originally proposed DPSPM, though admittedly I did back it, but that was largely on the basis of differentiating the spells, as in I hadn't dwelt on it much.

That said, so far I have yet to come up with a good way of demonstrating its worth, so it's entirely possible that is has none.

ah, statistics.

On the note of Mana per second, I'd argue you'd be better off with say overall mana lost per second, something that figures in the mana regen.

[BobTheJanitor]

On the note of Mana per second, I'd argue you'd be better off with say overall mana lost per second, something that figures in the mana regen.

Seems like a good plan. I'm trying to think of a way this could turn around and become more confusing, but I don't know of one right now. As long as it changes dynamically whenever mana regen increasing enchants make it in.

[Terraziel]

The issue that leaps to mind is what does it say when mana costs are below regen, -10 mana lost per second doesn't make a great deal of sense, no matter how true.

[x4000]

I seem to recall asking very pointedly at the time if DPSPM was something that made sense to anyone, because I was having a foggy time and couldn't wrap my head around it.  The general answer came back as yes, so I left it in.  I'm happy to take it out or change it to something else, but I am busy with other stuff so if you guys want a different formula to show there I need to know what to call it and what it would consist of.  DPM and DPS are easy and everyone seems happy there, but it does seem like one more stat would be desirable to really evaluate things.

[Terraziel]

I seem to recall asking very pointedly at the time if DPSPM was something that made sense to anyone, because I was having a foggy time and couldn't wrap my head around it.  The general answer came back as yes, so I left it in.

Yeah, that was me, my bad. It looks like it means something, but it doesn't

[x4000]

It wasn't just you, and I'm not trying to shift blame.  It's just freaking complex, and we're all trying to get a third number that illustrates something slightly other than what we currently have.  My brain is otherwise engaged, like I noted, so if you guys have something you'd like to see, then great -- if not, I'll just strike that stat.  Not a big deal either way, from where I'm sitting.

[Terraziel]

It's just freaking complex, and we're all trying to get a third number that illustrates something slightly other than what we currently have.  My brain is otherwise engaged, like I noted, so if you guys have something you'd like to see, then great -- if not, I'll just strike that stat.  Not a big deal either way, from where I'm sitting.

I suppose that's the real issue, can we come up with something that actually accomplishes what it was trying to....without modelling the entire game as an equation.

Perhaps, tying in to the mana per second suggestion, time till full mana drain, how long constantly firing the spell will take to drain you mana bar (regen adjusted)

[x4000]

Factoring in casting time, I imagine.  So we need to do two steps:

1. Mana Cost Per Second (assuming constant ROF): Mana Cost * Cooldown Time

2. Number of shots from full mana bar: Total Mana / (MCPS - Mana Regen )

That... seems like it would work.  But the name is wordy and confusing, and I'd like folks to check my math.  What do we call this?

EDIT: And if  (MCPS - Mana Regen ) <= 0, then show "Infinite."

[BobTheJanitor]

I feel like that's over complicating it. I can't explain exactly why, but just a straight up mana per second counter still seems like it would be the most useful for comparison. When you start getting in to specifics that are going to vary based on how long this character's mana bar is, or how many mana regenerating enchants you have, it makes the data less useful for as many purposes. I can't think of those other purposes right now, but I'm sure they're there. I'd rather have the most basic form of the data and let me fiddle with it from there as needed.

[Terraziel]

I feel like that's over complicating it. I can't explain exactly why, but just a straight up mana per second counter still seems like it would be the most useful for comparison. When you start getting in to specifics that are going to vary based on how long this character's mana bar is, or how many mana regenerating enchants you have, it makes the data less useful for as many purposes. I can't think of those other purposes right now, but I'm sure they're there. I'd rather have the most basic form of the data and let me fiddle with it from there as needed.

I'd note that all the other statistics are already modified for enchants and character power, so it's not as if this would be an isolated case of putting the character info into the equations.

Edit: added quote because of page change....

[BobTheJanitor]

No I don't mean modifiers per enchant. I mean if you do something like showing 'number of shots to empty mana bar' then that is going to vary from one character to the next depending on mana bar length.

[Terraziel]

Clearly i muddied the waters by mentioning Enchants.

The stats on spells are already determined by character. so no enchants.
If Character A has an attack power of 110% and Character B has an attack power of 125% they will see different figures for damage and anything calculated off it.

How is that any different than basing a calculation off your total mana?

[KDR_11k]

Perhaps just "damage before running out of mana". Of course that's character specific but for an ingame reference that's useful anyway.

Of course all of this talk is only relevant for spells with no other effect than simply dealing damage. That's currently what spells do but there's a lot of room for spells with all kinds of effects that may result in varying damage output depending on the combinations used.

[Terraziel]

Also the calculation, what i came up with was:

Step 1) Mana Cost Per second = mana cost / cooldown

Step 2) Shots from full mana = (Total mana / (MCPS-37)) / Cooldown

But even that seems wrong.

 

Perhaps just "damage before running out of mana". Of course that's character specific but for an ingame reference that's useful anyway.

Of course all of this talk is only relevant for spells with no other effect than simply dealing damage. That's currently what spells do but there's a lot of room for spells with all kinds of effects that may result in varying damage output depending on the combinations used.

To a degree this stuff doesn't even work for damage spells, no accounting of piercing, trajectory or the many other factors that determine how effective the spell is. What it does is gives the player the opportunity to compare between like spells, the player has to decide what "like spells" are though.