Author Topic: Some thoughts on the current state of the game (and why I've stopped playing)  (Read 3628 times)

Offline Misery

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So, I've been meaning to do a big feedback post for awhile now, so I figured I'd go ahead and do one.

Unfortunately, this isnt going to be the positive one I thought I'd be doing.


For the time being, I've pretty much stopped playing this;  which is a shame, as it was great right up until this point.

My problem:  The whole controls & angled shots thing.    The vast majority of the slices, and almost *all* of the spells, as well as enemy patterns, seem to be balanced around the fact that you had the angled shots to work with.    With it reduced to 4 way, most spells go from "pretty good" to "utterly worthless".    The first tier of spell classes, for instance.    Forgician is sorta OK.   And one of the others has a snake spell (I'll get to that in a moment here....).   The other 8 though, currently, are horrible.   And I'm expecting that this will be continuing into the other tiers, since there are many spells, but only so many spell TYPES, and right now, the only ones I've found to be of use are the snakes, waves (like the one Forgician has), and seekers, because these are capable of either A: going at alternate angles, thus allowing them to HIT something that nearly every other spell type simply cannot hit, or B: hitting an enemy that is using alot of heavy forward fire, blocking everything else (the wave shot can do this).

I'm going to show an example of the problem here:



This illustrates a situation that's not just common right now, but ABSURDLY common.   I ran into this one multiple times within the next 7 minutes or so, and it's just as bloody aggravating every single time.   The *only* area type where this might not happen is surface areas, the ones with the wind generators (and even then, it still can, and indeed did, happen in those).   Caves, buildings, towers, are going to have many problems with this because of how cramped they are.   In the situation up in that screenshot, I have no options, aside from standing there with a seeker spell (which cannot break the slug's shots), and just firing..... over..... and over..... and over...... and over...... and over...... and over again, having to get lucky each time to hit the thing (and doing very little damage every single time).   Of the 5 spell classes available to me, there is no other spell capable of hitting this enemy..... except certain specific ammo spells.   Ammo spells, though, are meant to deal with tough situations and dangerous, powerful foes.... using one to bypass what is actually just a design problem is a real waste, and surely, it's not the way the game was designed to work.   And even then, I *cannot* hit with any of the available ammo spells without first crashing through multiple slug bolts to get in range.

And it's not the fault of the slug's pattern, either.   Really, ANY enemy with a ranged attack, in that type of slice, is currently presenting the same problem.   You either have a snake spell, or a seeker, or you have to crash into it and smack it with an ammo shot, or just outright leave the area and find somewhere else and hope to get lucky in the slices that are chosen.   And heck, if that one had been one of those squids with the blue shots, I dont think even the seeker spell would work;  I would HAVE to crash through and ammo-blast it, because none of my current sets have a snake spell.

And it sure as heck isnt just that one slice!   There are *lots* of them.   So freaking many.   

A four-way style of attack simply doesnt work very well with this type of design.   Look at other games that use pure 4-way firing (or even 2 way, in the case of something like Megaman).  The Megaman series, the original Metroid, Cave story.... notice with these, that they DO NOT HAVE ANGLED SECTIONS  (or have very, very, very few).  Not only that, they're generally very lacking in cramped corridors;  the design of these games is very, very open, because that's what works with that control/firing style.  You do still have to aim your shots in those games, by being on the proper vertical/horizontal level, but it works because you have the room to do so.   This game, most of it, is very NOT open.  Alot of cramped, complicated areas with tons of platforms and walls.   There's nothing wrong with that, but.... right now, with this change, it doesnt work.   Those slices were created with the game's previous balance, and now, they just dont match what it turned into.   I also think the caliber system doesnt entirely work with this current style either.

Now, obviously, it's technically possible to beat that slug without getting killed.   But there's only two ways of doing it, either standing there and firing slow-moving seekers over and over and hoping something happens, or crashing right into the damn thing and ammo blasting it.   These both are examples of "fake difficulty" (look it up on TVTropes), which, previously, did not really exist in this game..... but now, it seems to be EVERYWHERE.   And both solutions simply dont fit how the combat is designed to work.

I remember something that one of the devs said (forget which one) regarding this game versus the previous one.  In the previous one, since the overall design was so.... er.... "wide", it was possible to change, add, or outright remove entire game mechanics and such, without completely wrecking the balance and playability.  Yet with this game, everything was designed from the start to work together as a cohesive unit, and changing/removing even just one thing could shatter it.   I feel this is exactly what has happened; a major, core element.... the 8-way firing.... was changed/reduced rather dramatically, and because of this, tons of other things that were designed around the specific balance that the original system used, have now changed/broken.    The only way to fix it is either to put it back, or really really dramatically change almost all of the spell sets currently in the game, or a great, great many of the slices (which would ALSO lead to less interesting areas, if the "open" style from games like Cave Story were to be used in a procedural way; the complexity of the current areas is what keeps them interesting).



Now, I dunno how many, if any, other players here will agree with me on this one.    But these are my honest thoughts about it, after spending some time testing and pondering the whole thing.   For all I know also, it might be less of an issue on lower difficulties (I'm on Hero now);  I cant play on those though, because easy games tend to put me to sleep.   And really, I shouldnt have to switch to a lower difficulty because of situations like the one up above.   


Not to mention.... this almost seems like something that I see REALLY often with console games, which is developers pandering to an audience simply because that audience cant handle difficulty, or things that take effort.   Look at fighting games, for instance.   I know *alot* of people that hate almost the entire genre..... except Smash Bros.    Why?   Because the games are complicated, and more specifically, the CONTROLS are complicated..... all those moves and specials and combos..... and are hard to learn, as opposed to Smash, which is *instantly* learnable and requires almost no effort.   Yet, if those other fighters were changed, and thus, simplified.... they wouldnt be the games that they are now, and wouldnt be GOOD like they are now.  The difficult controls in those are a part of the price of the gameplay being the way it is;  if you want to play one of those, you have to bite the bullet and spend some time practicing and learning it.    I dont at all think the guys at Arcen here are the type to do that sorta thing on purpose (whereas many console devs WILL do it on purpose, and there's tons and tons of examples of this), but still, that's the feeling I get from it.



Ok, that there, is enough rambling from me, hah.   I hate to sound so incredibly negative, and I do hope I havent somehow insulted or offended anyone here;  if I have, it wasnt my intention.    But I think feedback of this sort is important, so I figured I'd write it all up, and see what happens.   For the time being though, I'm going to put the game aside, much as I hate to.   I have next to no patience to begin with, so dealing with stuff like the example up there is..... well, it's only going to get things launched at the wall in the end, heh.     I'm hoping this fact will change somehow;  I've been praising this game since Alpha started, and all of the good ideas that make it up still remain pretty darned great.   It's just that the balance of the game has now been punted off a cliff and exploded with a nuke, so.... yeah, I'll just stop for now.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 01:48:38 am by Misery »

Offline Panopticon

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I have to agree. When the 4 way aiming works, it's fun. This tends to be in outdoor, open areas with lots of freedom of movement. Once the game goes inside, or most especially underground it becomes exactly as Misery describes it.

I had a positive first impression of the 4 way aiming when I first encountered it, but the situations that Misery describes are far too common and have killed a lot of the fun. I am constantly wishing I had the angled shots back, and when I saw that the game had updated today, I was seriously hoping it had made its return. After seeing it wasn't I couldn't really even get up the desire to fire the game up to check out the new monsters.

I think it's going to come down to one of two things. Redesign all of the slices around the new 4 way aiming, or return the angled shots.

Offline Misery

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I have to agree. When the 4 way aiming works, it's fun. This tends to be in outdoor, open areas with lots of freedom of movement. Once the game goes inside, or most especially underground it becomes exactly as Misery describes it.

I had a positive first impression of the 4 way aiming when I first encountered it, but the situations that Misery describes are far too common and have killed a lot of the fun. I am constantly wishing I had the angled shots back, and when I saw that the game had updated today, I was seriously hoping it had made its return. After seeing it wasn't I couldn't really even get up the desire to fire the game up to check out the new monsters.

I think it's going to come down to one of two things. Redesign all of the slices around the new 4 way aiming, or return the angled shots.



Yup.

And to be honest, I would be absolutely fine with them redesigning the slices to make 4-way work.   I still prefer 8-way in games like this, but 4-way DOES work for Metroid and the others, and with the right sort of level design, it would work for this one too.   It's not a BAD control scheme;  it just requires a certain design style to be implemented in other parts of the game.   And knowing the guys at Arcen, they could change the slices and make it all work together again without too much trouble (though it does sound like a major hassle, but.... everything in game design is a major hassle, hah).


I'll point out here, I have NOT lost interest in the game; dunno if my previous post mighta made it seem that way.  I still think that it is very, very good..... when it works.  With the 4 way plus current set of slices, it simply doesnt.   If something fixes the situation, I'll leap right back into it.

Offline chemical_art

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You've said it better then I ever could, Misery.

The game is built to be tight, with everything very interconnected. Both the slices and the nature of calibers seemed to be balanced on 8 way aiming. The decision to go from 8 way aiming to 4 way aiming in for balancing even more abrupt then going from free aim to 8 way aiming.

I admit our reactions to this are different. I still feel like  the massive rework of slices is not good. As you point out, it will in effect make them more similar, which is from my perspective terrible when so much of the game feels similar as it is. It won't just be the narrow caves effected either. It is very difficult to move vertically with just 4 way aiming (Meteoroid had a lot more vertical movement and less enemy projectiles options compared to AvWW). So towers are effected as well.

In addition, the time of hunting all those slices down takes precious time away which I know arcen is lacking right now, and saps the patience of the player base as a whole until it is at least partially fixed.

I know that in the end, 4 way aiming could work. It's just now I'm at the point that, from a beta perspective, it is an abrupt change such that I cannot accurately assess other changes to AvWW. Let alone the frustration standpoint, it simply is hard to evaluate if a new enemy is easy or hard if the slice is meant to be tackled with 8 way aiming. Same with spell balance, death penalties, impact of perks, the list goes on. The end result is that I'll be reading and not experiencing updates until I see that a good chunk of the slices are fixed.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 04:16:04 am by chemical_art »
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Offline Teal_Blue

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I must admit, and i think i have agreed that i miss the angled shots as well, but to be honest, i kinda felt that Arcen had been really through the ringer with the last audience for AVWW 1, so i really, really didn't want to say anything,  because i wanted  (a) it to work, and (b) not feel that i was being negative. But honestly, if the angled shots were 'optional' then i think it would work for those that want it, and also for those that prefer to use the 4-way.

For now, for me, I have uninstalled the game and re-installed with no updates, so its the beta 1.0 version and the angled shots are back!  :)   But everything else, including the new monsters and updates and patch fixes are not. But I am hoping that Arcen can be convinced that an 'option' is really not a bad thing, and as for balancing? Well, I would like it to be balanced around the 8-way, but to be honest, if it were balanced around the 4-way and it made it harder for me, even with my angled shots, well, i would live with that.

Anyway, don't know if that is a fix for you or not, i mean, it takes everything that was updated back out, but gets the angled shots back in if you want. For me, its a fix.

Sorry if i sound negative or discouraging to Arcen, i really don't mean to be, i mean, you guys have had enough of that sort of thing. But i really do like the angled shots, i mean, i really do.

Thanks for listening,


-T


Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Either the game as a whole needs redesigned around angled shots, or angled shots need to be back. That's all I've got to say. I agree with Misery.

Offline Mick

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I think it would be nice if every mage class had a spell that worked well in an "angled shot situation". I don't really feel like I make use of all 3 mana-less spells (I admit I have not tried every class). Hell, you don't even need to replace anything, you opened up two buttons, give 1-2 more spells to every class!  :o

Offline Winge

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I too miss angled shots.  I haven't played enough after the change to say whether they are a must or not, but not having angled shots greatly increases the difficulty of the game.

A part of me thinks that the larger design issue is the whole 'spell caliber' mechanic.  While there should be a few spells that can block enemy spells, allowing any spell to do so ends up being very binary.  If my shots destroy the enemy's, then I win with no difficulty.  If the enemy's shots destroy mine, then that enemy suddenly becomes much more difficult.  Some enemies (like the ant/slug thing with boomerang shots) force you to take damage for this reason alone--there is sometimes no other way to kill them.  This seems most apparent when enemies start blocking shots right after a Level-Up Windmill--the difficulty spike is much larger than any other change in the game.
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Offline Vatticson

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Mmh most of the time i encounter some downward enemy, I just jump over him while shooting down one of my spells.

Whatever, i have to say i didnĀ“t went to any cavern since the angled shooting removal, SOOO i think I'm going to try it!

Offline madcow

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Hmm I think the idea you touched on of expanding spell caliber is an interesting one.

I can envision spells of a type that ignore other shots (pass through but also don't block enemy spells), spells that block both enemy and friendly spells (cancel out both rather than piercing through), and so on.  That could introduce more variety and interesting tactics to spell selection.

I'll have to think that over.  It doesn't need to replace caliber spells. But would be a cool addition to it.

Offline Nanashi

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To be honest, I've also shelved Valley 2 for the time being until monsters and spells are all balanced out. Arcen is working on 3 projects at once or something, so I figure it's best not to put any pressure on  them by submitting yet-another-wererat bug report.

Frankly, a 4 way shooting system might work, but the caliber system and current enemy balance is not designed for it. I didn't use angled shots very oftenin normal gameplay, but at least they were there for the annoying obstacle bits that pretty much required them. I'm just checking back every patch and now to see if the game has gotten more content.

I don't think abruptly disabling it before making adjustments for the change was a good idea, at the moment it feels a bit like trying to play a Mario game with enemies from Megaman,.

Offline primordialthought

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I agree pretty whole heartedly. The four way aiming just doesn't work. You either have to redesign huge parts of the game to cater to a four direction aim, or you put the 'finger ballet' back in. I'd personally opt for the finger ballet, and here's why:

Firstlly:
Finally, spamming homing or snake spells is boring as hell.
Secondly, the eight way system wasn't bad enough to warrant this. It was just a little janky. Yes, it's not perfect, but as I've said before, I don't think it was ever going to be 'perfect'. That said, you can get used to the finger ballet, you can learn to get comfortable with that pretty fast. And you've got time to think about things in this game, too. I really didn't experience anything like the frustration that necessitated what could easily be construed as a dumbing down of the system. I don't mean to be overly harsh, but that's what it looks like.  The game is seemingly designed around angular shots, it doesn't make sense to do otherwise and I honestly believe it would sort of mess with the aesthetic if you had nothing but horizontal and vertical surfaces, especially in a psuedo-natural environment. Weird to say, considering some of the slices, but I think it's true. 

Offline TechSY730

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Don't really have an opinion on the 4-way vs 8-way thing yet, other than right now we have 4-way aiming in a game designed initially around 8-way aiming (a balance project the devs have already acknowledged as big something on their todo list) making it feel weird and unfair at times.

However, what Nanahi said is rather important.

I don't think abruptly disabling it before making adjustments for the change was a good idea, at the moment it feels a bit like trying to play a Mario game with enemies from Megaman,.

Maybe as a lesson for next time, when doing a public testing cycle, before making such a big, game changing shift, start with redesigning the parts that have the least "increase in annoyance", which may mean postponing the actual shift itself until some of the other aspects around can be adjusted for what it will be. Once enough of that is done such that the shift will no longer "break" the game, then you can do the shift and then finish the rebalance/redesign work.

Yea, I know it is a pre-release version, and thus Arcen doesn't "owe" us anything at the moment (they will once they declare it 1.0, but not before then), the way you did it this time will alienate too many pre-release testers until the rebalance can happen around this shift, thus robbing you of valuable feedback on other aspects for several versions. If you started to adjust the monster and chunks in anticipation for the 4-way aiming change, you could of kept this valuable player base for feedback on the other aspects of the game, acknowledging that feedback about monsters and chunk design is suspect until this change is complete, but that is better than no feedback from a lot of players for a while, which is what is happening now.


...

Wow. I'm beginning to realize that a public testing cycle is actually quite difficult to manage.  :o
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:29:07 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Panopticon

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Yep, this is why most devs go with professional teams of testers, do the work internally and have NDAs when they do start to let the public get a taste.


Offline Pepisolo

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Yeah, I'm struggling to force myself to play this at the moment as things currently are. When 8-way shooting was in I was having a lot more fun. The metroidian angle shooting worked fine on a joypad (after extensive alterations to the default controls). I just wish the developers had tried a few more things in order to reduce the "finger-ballet" associated problems on the keyboard before deciding to completely change the mechanics of the game. We really only had one half-hearted attempt when that tap up mechanic  was introduced.  For example, using the Alien Soldier/Contra Hardcorps single button to switch/between fixed and free aim would certainly have reduced the finger ballet a little (preferably mapped to shift on the keyboard), although of course it still wouldn't have been as simple as 4 way aim. At the moment the game just seems like it's trying to be something it's not.  Also, I'm not confident that it is possible to make this a pure 4 way shooting game, at least not without extending the development time greatly.

I would like to see how ProfessorPaul's idea would work out, though (from the other thread). It might have a chance of solving the current problems.