Author Topic: Some thoughts on current strategic system  (Read 3013 times)

Offline Misery

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Some thoughts on current strategic system
« on: January 12, 2013, 08:47:22 am »
Right, so, going to give some impressions I've gotten on the new strategic setup, and see what others think of it as well.


Now first of all, there are definitely some balance issues.... food and scrap amounts seem still balanced for the previous system, which assumed that there would be the passive benefits and such.   But that's not what I'm going to get into here, as that bit is probably easy to fix.


My first impressions of this new setup is kinda simple:   It feels rather.... dumbed down. 

In my current game, I have about 6 survivors.  And quite often, on many turns, I *dont* move them.   Now, some of this is because of the balance issues, sure.... for example, there *needs* to be multiple survivors sitting on a farm, or it wont do enough.   But beyond just that..... there's not much strategic reason to move them.    There are a few reasons for this.


One of the biggest reasons is the tiles.   There are now only a few tile types that survivors can directly interact with.   These seem to be farms, factories, tiles that farms/factories can be built on, and enemy towers/walls.    The towers I'm not even sure entirely count, as it's totally possible to completely ignore them and enter the areas they're in anyway.... they're just more dangerous, is all.   And the other tiles are too important to warrant taking time to deal with those.   But mostly, it's that the majority of the different types of tiles simply have no strategic value at this point.     You dont actually interact with the majority of them now.... the only strategy for alot of the "special tiles" is "wait till overlord is as far away as possible before purifying".    Once you've opened the tile (and surrounding region) for, say, an amp tower or whatever..... that's it.  Your interactions with that tile (and often, a large surrounding area) are completely done, there's nothing else there.   It's now entirely dependant on Demonaica's whims as to how long the effect from that special tile will last, wheras previously, that desert section, as well as it's position, and exits/entrances connected to it, among other variables, would remain important BECAUSE that tower was there, and once it was smashed, you'd then have all of those things factoring into when you need to go into that section again to repair it, and just how you'd go about getting in there.

And the strategy with the survivors seems to be very similar.... get them as far away as possible, and then sit on farm/factory as long as they can.    Wait for the overlord to come to that side of the map, rush to the other side, and more waiting.    Even the purifying seems to be like this.

Not to mention, so far, it's not as engaging as before.   I'm not all that far into my current game yet, but there've already been a good number of turns where I end up simply doing nothing at all with them, and just moving onto the next platformer section.   There just arent really much in the way of options now.   It's mostly either farm, or factory, and even when it comes to revealing those tiles, you just do them when the boss is on the other side of the map.


A big part of what I thought made the strategic part of the game so good before was the way that all of the different tile types worked, and the fact that once they started getting smashed, you had to make lots of decisions on what to rebuild, what to prioritize, what to get your guys moving towards.   The majority of this seems to be gone at this point.

Now, I do get that this system might not be finished, but again, these are just some basic impressions I've had of it.   It just seems to me that, at least for now, the strategic part went from "complicated and interesting, with lots of choices and consequences" to "Kinda simple, just stay as far away from overlord as possible, most tiles can be ignored once revealed".     The reasons to split up survivors also doesnt really seem to have increased all that much.   I've been just keeping them in two blobs so far, one that sits on farms, one that sits on factories.  Rarely, some random guy might split off into a third group to build something, but currently this is pretty rare.   Only rescued one survivor so far. 


There's also the problem of what happens when some of these get wrecked.... like the amp towers or whatever, if those are smashed.... that's it.   They're done.   The only option is to hope to find another soon.    I'm thinking also that the problem of kiting the overlord might still be here, as well;  this is likely possible by specifically choosing areas to purify in order to lure him over there.  If I find a city full of houses and factories, I simply dont reveal any of it until he's off on the other side of the map.   And even then.... only reveal SOME of it.   Once he goes over there to smash that, then purify something on the other side where he was before.   He goes back over there, and THEN I might reveal more of that city.   So on and so forth.

And once things are wrecked, depending on the area type, you might get an entire section of the map that suddenly has no point.   The marshy areas you can build farms in, and the abandoned cities are the ones that can remain useful, but many other "biomes" may as well not exist anymore once they've been fully revealed/stomped. 



Anyway, that's some thoughts on that based on what I've seen of it so far.    Do post your own thoughts on it here as well, I'm interested to see what some of you think of the whole thing.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 08:52:52 am by Misery »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 10:47:15 am »
Thanks for the feedback :)  It is still a work in progress but the feedback is still helpful.

Now first of all, there are definitely some balance issues.... food and scrap amounts seem still balanced for the previous system, which assumed that there would be the passive benefits and such.
I'd actually massively increased the amount of food produced by working farms for this reason, and while I didn't change scrap production much the lack of needing to rebuild stuff also significantly reduces your need for scrap (now it's just for building up those multi-purpose tiles).


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In my current game, I have about 6 survivors.  And quite often, on many turns, I *dont* move them.
While I'd prefer if you were motivated to move at least one survivor per turn, we definitely don't want people having to make a ton of moves per turn, as otherwise the time it takes to do a turn gets longer and longer as you get more and more survivors, and that kind of mid/late-game "bog down" is one of the things we most especially want to avoid.  This is why we stuck to the limited number of dispatches per turn for so long, but then you basically only have one piece on the board since you move your entire group as a... well, group.


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Now, some of this is because of the balance issues, sure.... for example, there *needs* to be multiple survivors sitting on a farm, or it wont do enough.
Right, we're actually in the process of making it so that only one resistance member may be on a tile at once, and will be rebalancing the amount of farmland and/or amount of food you get from farming accordingly.  So if you need more food income you'll need to find or build more farms.


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One of the biggest reasons is the tiles.   There are now only a few tile types that survivors can directly interact with.   These seem to be farms, factories, tiles that farms/factories can be built on, and enemy towers/walls.
There's:

1) ice-age, abandoned-town, desert, and ocean shallows multi-purpose tiles that can be converted to clinics/farms/factories.
2) grassland, ocean shallows, and ice age farms for food production
3) ice-age, desert, and abandoned-town factories for scrap production
4) pyramids and focal towers for mana production
5) the impasse tiles
6) rescuable-survivor tiles
7) the various special buildings, though I'm not sure they really do much nowadays
8 ) the evil outposts, though as you say their impact on the game is currently dubious

I might be forgetting something but I think that's it.

On the evil outposts, they used to make skill rolls harder in their proximity but skills are gone now, so perhaps they just need to make all missions except rally and knock-down-evil-outpost impossible within a few tiles range, so they have a localized impact.  And maybe cause a slight reduction in the monster aggression that goes up with each turn, though I suspect Chris wouldn't be wild about that.


On tiles not affecting strategic decisions once they're purified/built... well, I'm not sure what the alternative is, without making it really easy to kite the overlord around by constantly rebuilding stuff.  The overlord could be given some different behaviors to pursue sub-optimal paths (not going after the nearest target) but there's only a marginal benefit to be gained there, additional challenge would require multiple overlord pieces on the board (which we had at once point in pre-alpha but it gets really confusing and hard to handle).  Also on the tiles becoming less-relevant/irrelevant after a time: just as it's not a good thing if your average number of moves per turn goes up linearly with the number of resistance members, it's not a good thing if the average number of tiles you need to pay attention to each turn goes up linearly with the number of purified tiles.  It's ok that the last 1/4 of the game (in terms of turns) take a little longer than the first 1/4, but it needs to not take 4x as long.

Anyway, part of what's going on is that we've shifted the strategic game to one where the player can't really build up a sustainable situation:

1) You've got to stay on the move.
2) You can't hold a permanent base of operations.
3) Eventually the overlord's slash-and-burn tactics will leave you without the ability to get the resources you need (unless scavenging is better than I thought it is, there's a couple ways we could go with that).

So while "not dying to the overlord" isn't all that hard, you have to do more than that, you have to get in a position to win before you've got nowhere left to "hide" (or, in this case, farm).  Morale can also be hard to maintain.

This seems much more fitting to the context than the previous system, I think.


On the amp towers, they were so strong before that we were considering majorly nerfing them or just replacing the mechanic altogether (since there's not much granularity there for nerfing), so the fact that they're "smashed and gone" now is basically that nerf.  Keeping at least one online most of the time from the mid-game onward shouldn't be too hard, but I may be wrong about that.

On kiting the overlord by just revealing sections of targetable land on opposite sides of the map, well, that is basically how to manage him, yea.  We jokingly refer to it as "The Traveling Overlord Problem".  If it's working that well I imagine you don't have many other buildings working in the game, or he'd hit them on the way from one side of the map to the other.
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Offline madcow

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 10:49:26 am »
If all missions have a 100% chance for success, will your resistance members even get injured? I haven't tested this part yet - but I hope we still have a reason to make clinics to begin with.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 10:50:46 am »
If all missions have a 100% chance for success, will your resistance members even get injured? I haven't tested this part yet - but I hope we still have a reason to make clinics to begin with.
Infighting.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2013, 11:03:51 am »
One idea that comes to mind that might help with some of this stuff:

1) If the overlord reaches the end of his turn without the satisfaction of kool-aid-man'ing a building or eviscerating a resistance member, he contents himself with a long range spell that wounds some random non-wounded resistance member.  The chance of this working would probably be proportional to strategic difficulty level.

2) Remove the "free heal" rule which sometimes heals one random wounded resistance member at the end of the turn.

3) Make clinics only have a chance to heal if it is being "worked" by a resistance member.


Thoughts?
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Offline madcow

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2013, 11:09:51 am »
I like these ideas.

Another possibility is that after resistance members have attacked buildings (outposts, impasse objects), become wounded automatically after destroying X number of objects. Where X scales with difficulty. Basically corresponds to the wear of a long campaign.

Another idea (which I'm honestly a little less enthused about, but will throw it out anyways) is to limit the range of clinics to only heal survivors that are a certain distance away from them.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2013, 11:35:28 am »
Another possibility is that after resistance members have attacked buildings (outposts, impasse objects), become wounded automatically after destroying X number of objects. Where X scales with difficulty. Basically corresponds to the wear of a long campaign.
We'd thought about having each survivor have HP like that, worn down by attacking, but that's more state that the interface has to communicate to you, etc.  Didn't seem worth it.

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Another idea (which I'm honestly a little less enthused about, but will throw it out anyways) is to limit the range of clinics to only heal survivors that are a certain distance away from them.
Since wounded survivors can't move that'd be pretty brutal :)  You might or might not have an eligible spot for a clinic in range at all.


Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, they may prompt something else.
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Offline madcow

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2013, 11:37:21 am »
Ahh, I forgot about them not being able to move.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2013, 11:39:41 am »
Ahh, I forgot about them not being able to move.
Yea, makes them much easier for the overlord to catch :)
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Offline LayZboy

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2013, 11:18:50 pm »
1) If the overlord reaches the end of his turn without the satisfaction of kool-aid-man'ing a building or eviscerating a resistance member, he contents himself with a long range spell that wounds some random non-wounded resistance member.  The chance of this working would probably be proportional to strategic difficulty level.

Thoughts?

No.
Full map attacks are (mod edit: foul language removed) and should never exist.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 01:59:33 pm by keith.lamothe »

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2013, 11:26:10 pm »
^ We generally avoid foul language. That said I completely agree infinite range formidable attacks are terrible and should not exist.

Offline Oralordos

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2013, 11:49:37 pm »
Perhaps in the higher difficulties only.

Offline Misery

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2013, 01:41:04 am »
^ We generally avoid foul language. That said I completely agree infinite range formidable attacks are terrible and should not exist.


This, but I think Keith has a good idea here.... just not infinite range.


The one thing about the overlord is that stomping on buildings is the ONLY thing he does.   Giving him a couple of additional abilities would not be a bad idea;  they'd just have to be balanced well.   I dont have any ideas as to exactly what, though.


If all missions have a 100% chance for success, will your resistance members even get injured? I haven't tested this part yet - but I hope we still have a reason to make clinics to begin with.


Also, this.  I normally dont even build clinics because they simply arent necessary most of the time.   This isnt a recent thing though, this has been the case right from the start;  it's super easy to avoid wounds, really.   That was one issue I forgot to bring up with my original post.



The biggest problem with the current system, to me, is really the lack of options that the survivors have.   Generally it's either make farm, make factory, sit and produce, or run away..... and that really is about it.     And when it comes to building things, you dont even have to go to NEW areas all that often (I think), you could just use the same abandoned cities and what not each time, if their positioning is really good.   The combat bit is a bit trivial at the moment..... the outposts arent quite dangerous enough (maybe give them a wider radius, or special effects?), and the "walls", well, you generally only need to break one spot in a big wall;  just enough to get through, there's no reason to break any more of them.    And the actual building stuff part, hmm..... I just think it'd be better if there were more types of things that survivors could construct.  It just doesnt seem very fleshed-out or interesting when there's exactly three types of buildings to make (and I have yet to find enough reason to actually construct apartments since they're still passive and farm/factories are many times more important.... a turn spent making an apartment is a turn you could have spent sitting on a farm/factory to gather more resources).   And the choosing of locations is pretty limited as well, though technically this was always the case.

On top of this, currently I'm also kinda unclear on why exactly I should rescue more survivors;  there's quite a few of them on my current map, but.... I cant see any strategic advantage to having more of them.   I can, though, see lots of DISADVANTAGE, because they take up so very much food.   The food bit will be better with balance tweaks though, but that doesnt change the fact that there just isnt much reason to grab them.   Particularly since, again, that's a turn (or possibly even a few turns) that could be spent sitting on a resource tile instead.

The idea of having each survivor take up a tile isnt a bad one, but I think it might actually decrease the already limited reasons to grab more survivors;  each additional survivor means you need that many more available resource tiles to sit on at once..... so each new guy would progressively make things worse for you, by the current system.   And this would get nastier and nastier as Demonaica gains more and more range, stomping larger numbers of things at once.   And you can only reveal so many tiles at once.... particularly if the boss has managed to stomp your currently revealed amp towers.


The best ideas I can think up involve giving survivors more types of things that they can build.   Something like the Ivory Towers.... something that directly links to the platforming bits, not necessarily the strategic bits (being able to just outright build, say, new amp towers could get a little silly).  Though having them have effects on the strategic bit isnt a bad idea either if it's balanced well.    You could even say that such special tiles like the Ivory Towers or whatever also require being manned by someone.... like, the tower doesnt work unless a survivor is there pumping magic into it.   Perhaps have an option that's just "construct Tower", which takes up.... some amount of scrap, and has different effects depending on the sort of biome/tile you put it in.   This might put more importance on both choosing areas, and also on positioning, both for keeping the tower up longer.... partciularly as the overlord gains speed...   and also for making sure that the survivor can escape once the overlord inevitably comes to wreck the place. 


Offline madcow

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 10:45:12 am »
This seems silly to ask but - how is the one survivor per a file going to work with recruitment. Will the redesigned UI be able to handle it?

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: Some thoughts on current strategic system
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2013, 11:36:58 am »
The thing is, if the overlord can just smite whoever he wants, then it's just a really cheap and horrendous ability to deal with. You can't exactly do anything about him waving a hand and casting a long range spell. Other abilities are good. I'm thinking, things outside of direct combat. Maybe he can erect temporary blockades, or put damage field storms on the map temporarily to make running away harder. Or, he throws storms down on your worked factories or farms so that you HAVE to move your survivors or risk all of them getting injured. That way, it's at least avoidable and makes you think a little bit harder. Though, I'm sure others can come up with some better strategy-deepening similar abilities. Regardless, I remain in the camp of 'unavoidable damage is really really bad so don't do it'. It's a cheap shot at the player, not just a way to make the game more difficult. Sure, it makes the game harder, but to what end when you can't stop it?