Author Topic: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)  (Read 9415 times)

Offline Reactorcore

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Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« on: April 28, 2012, 03:25:30 pm »
Hi Arcen Community

I recently got the game and spent a couple hours into it, there is some feedback that I wanted to give based on my experience so far.


First some compliments:


From a design standpoint, I love it. A Valley Without Wind is a vast game with lots of meaningful and useful systems that tie the whole experience together extremely well. While it does require you to stop and read a bit, and also use your head to figure out how certain things work (i. e. this is not a game you play mindlessly or get away with stupidity), you can get into it fairly easy and the game has numerous ways to guide and help you figure out how it works, even despite so many "hidden" features scattered across its design that are not so apparent at first.

Also the way its designed to have infinite gameplay and focused support for co-op is just awesome.

Now for some critisism and suggestions...


The Uncanny Valley effect of the aesthetics in AVWW:


Ever since I saw the trailers and screenshots, the visual side of AVWW felt really out of place and wierd, in a bad way. However what got me interested in the game so much to get it, was its design and idea behind it.

Now that I've actually played it for a couple good hours, got a hang of the gameplay and seen it all in action, I'd like to give some constructive critisism about this issue because after playing AVWW, my eyes are extremely tired and I have a minor headache too. There are multiple aspects what is wrong with the aesthetics.

Important note:

Please, don't get me wrong, the massive effort that went into each graphical asset is obvious, so I must stress that I'm not berating the actual artwork assets. They're lovingly crafted and detailed to the last perfection. The point I'm critisizing is the aesthetics, in other words how all those assets work together ingame. The overall mood and feel.

1. Detail Overload

In AVWW, you move very fast, change areas often and constantly explore ever new areas in this game. Every time you enter a new area, your eyes and brain are overwhelmed by massive amounts of new information, most of it critical to your survival, so you cannot ignore it so easily.

Whats worse is that that information is extremely rich in detail. The scenery, the terrain surface, the background, the enemies, your character and the UI are all so extremely detailed that it makes your face melt from the sheer brutal amount of information you get bombarded. And the fact the game is fast paced and keeps taking you to new places at a fast rate, your eyes and brain are subconsiously heavily strained. This makes the whole game VERY hard on the eyes and difficult for the brain to handle in the long run.

I really don't want to say "make your art more simple", but for things that are in the background, its probably necessary (and perhaps the only way) to simplify them and kill off some detail from those background-orientated elements. In theory, this can be achieved using blur, desaturation and lowering contrast. There is no need to do new art from scratch, just tweak the existing art assets to be more kind on the eye as a whole.

2. Too Sharp Contrast, Brightness and Saturation

Simply put; the background, scenery, projectiles and actors blend together too strongly, are too bright and too colorful.
What happens is that it becomes sometimes hard to distinguish actors, projectiles and objects in the game. Its not a complete mess, but it really takes heavy effort from the brain and eyes to identify what is what on the screen. Again, the fact that everything is so detailed and how fast you move in the game only add to the problem.

Turn down the saturation, brightness and contrast for things that are in the background and the opposite for more active and important things that are in the foreground.

3. Menu Information Overload and UI Text Size

I'll be blunt; the default UI text is so damn small that I need to squint my eyes to read it properly. And my eye-sight is sharp.
And it doesn't help at all that there is lots of that said text, most if not all of it quite interesting and useful (and funny, I love the gravestones humor in the tutorial btw, very clever).

Probably try a bigger font size or different font or having more division of text paragraphs so they're more spaced out and thus easier to follow and read.

The aesthetics are pretty much my only legitimate complaint about AVWW I have so far that has had a negative effect on my playsession. The rest of my post is mostly suggestions that could make AVWW better function-wise.



Key Combo Input to use spells and custom key combo editor for said purpose:

The movement, inventory management and attacking work very smoothly in AVWW, but managing your spells is very cumbersome on the fly. You can indeed pause the game and stop to manage your spells, but that kills the momentum of the game too often.

Currently you can use 2 spells (with the mouse buttons) at one given time effectively without needing to stop or make your hand to bend and stretch over the keyboard to hit a 1-9 hotkey or right-click the icon in the spell hotbar without messing your concentration, aim or movement. But commonly, you end up using 4-5 spells/items on a regular basis so this is not so good and the combat fun suffers from this.

One idea I had is to allow the player to assign a custom key combo to a spell in his/her inventory. A shining example is that "Storm Dash" spell that makes you run super fast (I love that one spell so much btw).

Some spells might have pre-set combo to use them automatically, while others don't, but allow you to assign them or edit such a key combo for automatic use.

A key combo can be any sequence or simultaneous combination of keys using the movements buttons (WASD), spell usage buttons (Mouse 1 & 2) and perhaps a special modifier key (F key is a good candidate, it also seems like a free key according to the default control setup).

You could pause the game or otherwise select a spell and have an option to edit a key combo for it. It would open a small window where you can enter a sequence of keys and then save it for that spell. You can also remove key combos in the same window.

With this feature, you would be able to use more spells actively exactly how you want, without needing to pause the game and thus keeping up a higher ingame momentum of action.



Default key for Pause is a bit cumbersome:

Okay, this issue can be fixed by the user in 2 seconds, but seriously, pausing in this game is something you would do often and its also very useful otherwise, so having it bound to P by default doesn't make much sense. You have to either let go of the mouse or abandon your movement controls (Not good) to reach the "p" key on your keyboard every time you want to scan the enemy or pause the game to re-arrange your spell or otherwise.

I personally have set it to Q (I hope that "cancel enemy targetting" function wasn't anything important) and its much better.



"Look forward" function is too limited:

You have a lot of vertical movement in AVWW, and when I pressed 'g' for the first time to use the "look ahead" function, it was dissapointing.

I'd suggested that while you hold 'g', you may move your mouse cursor freely and the camera would follow it any direction you drag it towards. The limit would be that the you cannot look so far that the player leaves the screen, but you can actually look ahead freely in any direction you want as long you hold 'g', not just limited to forward only.

If you've played ever played Soldat or King Arthurs Gold, that is the kind of camera mechanic I'm talking about.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:08:30 am by Reactorcore »

Offline Penumbra

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 03:40:07 pm »
"Look forward" function is too limited

If you turn on "Mouse Cursor Dynamically Moves Camera" it really helps you look around. It focuses the camera between your character and the cursor, letting you see further wherever you need.

Offline Oralordos

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 04:21:46 pm »
A shining example is that "Storm Dash" spell that makes you run super fast (I love that one spell so much btw).
Storm Dash has a preset of double-tapping the direction to move in to activate. Same thing with Ride the Lightning, which activates when you jump in the air with no more enchant jumps left.

Offline The Wuggly Ump

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 04:25:25 pm »
Excellent points. I'm really hoping Arcen uses the profit from this project to hire an artist or two. In the meantime, an option to adjust the font size would be a massive improvement, as would some customization of the interface in general. It'd be nice if I could turn off the message log for some types of messages ("0.3 damage from Bat" stuff would be better as floats anyway) while keeping others like my percentage toward the next upgrade. Although that'd be better as an individual HUD element, like the EXP bar in a Diablo-style action-RPG. I'd also like to rearrange the HUD so it's all together instead of spread out among all four corners of my screen - is any of that stuff moddable? 'Cause I apparently want to redesign the entire interface.

In the meantime I'm gonna buy some eyedrops, I play this game enough to get eyestrain.
"Look forward" function is too limited

If you turn on "Mouse Cursor Dynamically Moves Camera" it really helps you look around. It focuses the camera between your character and the cursor, letting you see further wherever you need.
It also makes me nauseous, unfortunately. It'd be nice if there were a slider for the speed or smoothness of the camera movement, it's too jerky for me by default.

Offline Penumbra

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 05:57:17 pm »
A shining example is that "Storm Dash" spell that makes you run super fast (I love that one spell so much btw).
Storm Dash has a preset of double-tapping the direction to move in to activate. Same thing with Ride the Lightning, which activates when you jump in the air with no more enchant jumps left.

I think he is referring to custom bindings. There is already a mantis issue for custom double taps. And another one for modifier keys. You can find information and the developer's thoughts there.

The developers kindly added in the bindings for 30 generic skills, plus an additional group of specific skill bindings. I wrote an AutoHotkey script to bind all 30 skill slots to a 5 button mouse and 5 keyboard keys using Shift and Alt as modifiers. You can find the details in the mod section here. It would be pretty simple to change to use different keys, as well as your "f" for a modifier. I would be more than happy to help you set that up.

I also use "q" for pause, as it is really useful. When you use tab targeting, the only way to stop it is to either kill the target or press the "cancel" binding. So, only needed if you use tab targeting (or hit it by accident).

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 06:01:46 pm »
Arcen had an artist on Tidalis but that flopped so they had to downsize.

I think an issue is with contrast, often the backgrounds have more contrast between their light and dark areas than between the background and the foreground.

Offline DesiQ

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 07:36:32 pm »
I wonder if there is support for texture packs, or if there will be in the future? I think a minimalist, more abstracted style would suit this game quite well.

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 07:59:02 pm »
I really like the visual style, actually; I think it fits together nicely. I'd call it an improvement on Tidalis.

Offline Dan_Cilantro

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 08:33:47 pm »
I strongly agree with the OP. When you enter a screen and your attention is drawn more to a giant pink frond in the background rather than the enemies that are actively trying to kill you, something is wrong.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 08:37:03 pm »
@the OP: welcome to the forums :)  Thanks for the feedback, and for trying to be rational and specific.  The thread title will probably deter the artist from reading this, as he's trying to focus on working and not getting sucked into unproductive/depressing conversations.  But the detailed feedback may help later on.

At this point we've basically stopped trying to change the art, because we've done major art overhauls several times through the course of the project, and there's been no reliable correlation between "we changed something" and an apparent change in the feedback.  Sometimes we'd change something and feedback would get better or worse.  Sometimes we'd not change anything and feedback would get mysteriously way better.  Sometimes we'd make drastic changes and some of the feedback would swear up and down that we hadn't done a thing.  And so on.  Attempting to determine what art changes would result in a significant net positive impact is therefore proving intractable from the "scientific method" perspective ;)

But that's not to say it will never change, just that for the forseeable near-future (next year, maybe?) we have many other areas where we have a lot more desire to change things and there are demonstrable and tangible benefits from doing so :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline postmanmanman

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 08:55:38 pm »
From what I can glean of the largely ambiguous story, the world is a mish-mash of several different time periods. So that's the reasoning, I guess, for the wildly inconsistent aesthetic. Unfortunately, the aesthetic is still incredibly ugly, there's just no way to put that lightly. Everything mentioned in the OP is altogether too true... it looks, honestly, like a game that came out in the late 90s. And, by that, I mean "outdated," not "retro." There's an important difference.

Doesn't make the actual game any less awesome, because it is indeed VERY awesome. I spent more hours than I care to count on just the demo today and fully intend to purchase the game at some point. (Maybe tomorrow.) But yeah, a COMPLETE graphical overhaul would do wonders for the game. Hell, just point us in the direction of the art assets and maybe modders can clean up some of the worse decisions.

Offline Tayrtahn

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 09:08:15 pm »
I wonder if there is support for texture packs, or if there will be in the future? I think a minimalist, more abstracted style would suit this game quite well.
That would be really interesting... if Arcen let the community try out different art styles, it would save the developers from having to create all the art assets themselves, while still getting the results of the experimentation. I'd definitely like to see what could come out of that...

Offline Dan_Cilantro

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 09:17:29 pm »
Yeah, this could be an extension of Arcen's existing practice of utilizing community feedback to rapidly iterate--taking the most popular visual alterations and codifying them=free labor, plus everyone's happy (well not everyone; this is the internet). I really hope Arcen does consider this, because it could dramatically alter perception of the game. I dislike all the blunt comments the appear whenever an AVWOW news item appears on RPS or Blue's News, but the fact that they're so ubiquitous is telling.

Offline DesiQ

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2012, 09:27:11 pm »
Yeah, this could be an extension of Arcen's existing practice of utilizing community feedback to rapidly iterate--taking the most popular visual alterations and codifying them=free labor, plus everyone's happy (well not everyone; this is the internet).
Nope, everyone would be happy. Having texture pack support would mean that everyone could run whatever texture pack they wanted, just like in Minecraft. Even Terraria can use texture packs (unofficially). It would really depend on the complexity of the textures, though. Minecraft textures are easy since at its simplest, a cube of sand just gets the same square texture on six sides. Terraria's textures are much more complicated since there are different patterns of dirt to break up the look of large areas of dirt, textures for the area where two different materials meet, corner caps, with and without grass, and so on. It would be the same for AVWW, I imagine.

Offline The Wuggly Ump

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Re: Some feedback on AVWW - (face melting aesthetics)
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2012, 09:44:28 pm »
Pretty sure all or most of the textures are replaceable, they need to be the same size as the original, but other than that it should be fine according to something I read somewhere but can't find. It's all in ~AVWW\RuntimeData\Images.

Anyone got a way to desaturate several hundred .png files all at once? Can IrfanView do anything like that? That'd make a good start for some of the more glaring textures.

EDIT: Yup, changed AshMountain.png in IrfanView and the game loaded it just fine. It ended up with a big black border, but that's because I don't know what I'm doing. I recommend backing up the original files before editing them.

EDIT 2: GIMP does it without the black border (apparently an alpha transparency issue in IrfanView), and I think GIMP has a way to do stuff in batch, but I'm tired and totally clueless about this stuff so I'll go to bed and hope someone cleverer than me will figure it out.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 10:14:38 pm by The Wuggly Ump »