Author Topic: Some Feedback  (Read 4822 times)

Offline primordialthought

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 03:57:43 pm »
That's the main problem with the strategy building aspect of the game: you don't really build buildings, or have any impact on the world. You just put things in the way of this rampaging tyrant as you run for increasing numbers of hills. On paper this is cool, but as a game mechanic where you're building all this stuff in this world, but none of it is permanent... it doesn't work. You don't gain enough. Maybe that's a lack of loot or something, and I assume that's just a by-product of beta and non-implemented content, but if everything you acquire is just a temporary, disposable oil slick to slow the guy down, you start to lose your own sense of pace because nothing you do, or gain, has any sense of value.

Offline Panopticon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 04:23:53 pm »
The mechanics that govern Demonaica's actions are a mystery to me so far beyond he moves a bit and likes to kill, maim and destroy what he can get his hands on. Some things I'd like to know are, is his view range limited or is he omniscient? Can he see everything that's on the map? Is he aware of the location of all the resistance members? What kind of target priority does he have going on? Because it seems to me that unless you can set up ruses and decoys to buy some breathing room Demonaica is going to be constantly chomping at your heels, eating any stragglers and leaving a swath of destruction behind him. Which could be cool, but needs to be paced properly or could end up being too exhausting.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 04:25:36 pm by Panopticon »

Offline madcow

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,153
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 06:20:56 pm »
What would be cool is if we could build defenses to slow him down/gate him somewhat. Emphasis is on somewhat, not a way to completely negate him.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 06:27:17 pm »
What would be cool is if we could build defenses to slow him down/gate him somewhat. Emphasis is on somewhat, not a way to completely negate him.
Maybe an Oblivion Beacon or something. It costs a lot of scrap AND mana, and draws henchmen and Demonaica towards it until it's destroyed. This means, perhaps there's a very drastic decrease in boss encounters for a very temporary time (until it's destroyed), and it also acts as a defense, since Demonaica will just beeline towards it instead of doing anything else.

Offline chemical_art

  • Core Member Mark IV
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Fabulous
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 07:21:55 pm »
One idea I have that would both make the player feel a sense of progress and also help in defense would be an event that would unlock mid game.

It would be an option that you and your survivors set up an ambush for Demonacia. Your allies would someone block in and neutralize whatever followers (henchmen or otherwise) that are Demonaica is harboring and weaken Demoncia himself, while you yourself would attack him.

The goal would be that Demonacia's strength for this event is set from the start of the game, and doesn't scale as much as the player does, so the intended effect being early game it is impossible, mid game very difficult, and later game manageable. It would help the player feel "empowered" in that they can somewhat offset Demoncia through cunning. In addition, it would provide a method of defense.

It would have its costs of course. It would cost a turn, so until the player has expanded quite a bit to make the lost turn worthwhile. In addition, if the event fails you lose a turn, in addition you put your survivors at great risk. Lastly, Demoncia if defeated would wisen up to your tricks, so would not be weakened (in effect become stronger) after each successful event. So in practice it would be a last resort to late game where you could do it reliably, and toward the very late game for the final battle you would have to make a reason while you can't weaken Demoncia again (something along the lines you cannot setup a trap, or because your allies are too busy fighting to set up the trap)
Life is short. Have fun.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2012, 07:41:02 pm »
That's the main problem with the strategy building aspect of the game: you don't really build buildings, or have any impact on the world. You just put things in the way of this rampaging tyrant as you run for increasing numbers of hills. On paper this is cool, but as a game mechanic where you're building all this stuff in this world, but none of it is permanent... it doesn't work. You don't gain enough. Maybe that's a lack of loot or something, and I assume that's just a by-product of beta and non-implemented content, but if everything you acquire is just a temporary, disposable oil slick to slow the guy down, you start to lose your own sense of pace because nothing you do, or gain, has any sense of value.


That's part of the point though, I think.   This guy is supposed to be nearly unstoppable.  Hell, this is a guy who can just hand out complete immortality, so long as his big crystal thing remains intact.   The resistance against him, it's supposed to be a pretty desperate thing... for me, I think one of the appeals of the strategy mode is because of the fact that it feels like he's ALWAYS right on my heels.  In alot of other strategy games, it often doesnt take long before the challenge aspect starts to drop, as your army or whatever gets bigger, and so on and so forth.   Which is fine.  But I do like the way things work here.... because nothing is quite that simple with this guy, and it really forces you to THINK about decisions, and make the most of your various buildings while you have them.

As it is, I think the buildings have plenty of impact on the world, even if they are rather stompable.  Farms in my current game, for instance.... he's definitely on his way to stomp the things, but since I kept distracting him with other buildings like factories or more "major" things like Ivory Towers, I've managed to accumulate a vast amount of food... he can stomp those now if he wants, and it just wont matter.   It's a satisfying moment, knowing that my strategy in handling that particular thing to get that particular resource worked.  And while he's heading over to stomp them farms, it's a perfect chance for me to rebuild the Amp tower on the other side of the continent, allowing me faster expansion into an area with a ton of apartments and factories.   My tactics are accomplishing something, yet the difficulty, and the strength and threat level of the enemy, has not fallen..... yeah, alot more satisfying than some other strategy games.

As for gaining stuff... hmm, I dunno.  Seems fine to me.   I gain resources, which I need, but I also gain things like perks and levels and entire new spell sets and feats as I go along.  Gain more survivors, too, and they gain more skill in different things.   I have to wonder if the first game mighta actually gone too far with the "loot" idea.... a bit more like Diablo in that the stuff was EVERYWHERE, and 95% of it was nothing you actually needed.   This time.... when you DO gain something.... it's generally helpful.   The ONLY exceptions are the equipment, which needs to be reworked, and also the mercenary coins, as the mercenaries themselves seem either useless or incomplete, hard to say.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2012, 11:29:36 pm »
It might just be that I'm bad at strategy, but I'm one strategic difficulty below default and I'm really low on food and scrap and I have no real way of gaining either of those things because the only way to get factories or farms were all like in the same cluster.

Offline Nanashi

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2012, 11:42:50 pm »
@Thesaurus: Have you tried scavenging? I try not to abuse it because it seems a bit exploitable, but once you do it for a few turns, your characters seem to get really good at it and produce massive amounts of food and scrap.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2012, 11:45:43 pm »
That's more or less how I have to spend my strategic turns a lot of the time. Maybe it'll get better after enough scavenges.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 12:33:11 am »
It might just be that I'm bad at strategy, but I'm one strategic difficulty below default and I'm really low on food and scrap and I have no real way of gaining either of those things because the only way to get factories or farms were all like in the same cluster.


Some of it might be map generation issues.  Having ALL of the farmable (and whatever else) areas in one big blob like that.... that sounds like the RNG being a jackass.  But it also just might be that the generator isnt quite perfect yet.  It'll probably get better as the beta continues.   Perhaps consider starting a new game, and see if it happens again?

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2012, 01:38:29 am »
Well like, I had a farm and it was two blocks away from a city that had lots of housing and factories. I opened a bunch of caves to get a lot of map coverage to the left, and I revealed the city to get some breathing room and resources for the future... but the caves were all in the desert, and I think the rest of the area was bordered by swamp or The Deep/Skelebot stuff. So, I've only just gotten around to a nice little ocean shallows place, and I'm going to be building some farms there as soon as I actually have scrap.

On a second look, I think I'll only be draining my food reserves for a little while longer, as I have like 4 adjacent factories down just south of the screenshot's range. Grab em, build some farms. When Demonaica comes to chew up my farms, go rebuild the other farm. When he goes after the factories... hopefully I'll have built more factories. I've been deliberately avoiding survivors until I can actually afford the ones that I already have. I've been uncomfortably close to the edge of losing morale for pretty much the entire game so far.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2012, 01:57:53 am »
Hmm, it's not that bad of a map setup actually.... for the early part of the game, anyway.   I think you'll find that you'll have alot more options in general later on.   On the plus side, there IS alot of free housing just in those scouted sections, like the dark area southwest of where Demonaica currently is (the little huts in the swamp), and there's more housing directly south of the ocean shallows area.    ooh, looks like there's also an Amp tower AND a castle for you to grab, and you already have a pyramid.   Not a bad start.  If you can get through the "not enough options" bit of the early game, you'll probably do fine.   At least Jerkface cant move very far on any given turn that early, so that balances out somewhat.   It'll take him quite some time before his move range really starts to ramp up.

Good luck to ya!

Bear with me, as I don't really know your full situation and what has happened, but I think I know your problem...

Scrap isn't gotten by building factories and just owning them. Yes you get 10 per turn but that's nothing compared to the build cost. In order to actually get scrap, you have to have your resistance fighters work the factory. Once their worker skill is decent from doing this, they'll be making enough scrap to actually pay off the cost of building a factory. Or better yet, just purify one and work that.

The same thing can be done with farms, and the worker experience for both is shared. While extra farms are hard to come by, you can generally make by with just the starting one if you stockpile food (via working the farm when it isn't destroyed) and owning things like grasslands with groves. That changes if you recruit survivors, but it should not take too long to find another grassland (which will probably have a farm).

Now like I said I dunno if you've been using "working" to its fullest extent or not, but I thought I would throw this out there...

Hmm, I dunno if it's different on higher levels of difficulty, but it's possible to get plenty of scrap and such without ever manning anything.   I've got a really damn silly amount of food, and I never actually had anyone work those tiles (too many other things that needed to be done).  And factories tend to be found in big clusters;  if you clear the area they're in while Jerkface is far away from them, you'll get a good few turns of massive scrap production.   Though building factories yourself is still an important option.


Really do think this part of the game came out well... there's just so many different ways to approach it.   

Offline Gemzo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 02:05:47 am »
Perhaps you should have went for the grassland with groves tiles early on. Those are a big deal earlygame, before you've found a second farm and such.

Also I deleted my previous post since, well, working isn't a option when all your factories and farms are lined up to get knocked down like that. But anyway, I guess I can elaborate since I was ninja responded-to... Well it's simple really. Once your worker experience is high, you can make over 100 scrap or food per dispatch with just your starting group of 4. It is really powerful.

Oh and to tie these 2 things together, you can work the grasslands with groves for less food than a farm. It still gives worker experience though, meaning once you do get a chance to work a factory or farm, you are golden in terms of resources.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2012, 02:22:38 am »
Yep, I'm actually headed for that amp tower eventually. I'm tactically getting it and avoiding the portal so Demonaica can't warp straight to it and curb stomp it. I have to deal with a lieutenant tower to do this, but that's not my biggest worry. I'm on default - 1 for the combat difficulty, so I should be able to survive at worst.
I actually did do some testing of difficulty settings, and the gap between each one is extraordinary. Featherweight is a complete joke because of the massive degree that it nerfs everything, even compared to the one that I'm on, just a step above that. That might be something for the polish list. Maybe if I can succeed at this game, I'll try the highest or smallest map size and see how the game scales on those. I also totally didn't know what the grasslands with groves did or that they were even grasslands with groves because... well, you can't select them without purifying them. From the start I saw two level up towers. Gotta get those before Demonaica even leaves his house. The little trees on grasslands barely are even visible for me when given such shinies as those.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Some Feedback
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2012, 02:58:01 am »
Yep, I'm actually headed for that amp tower eventually. I'm tactically getting it and avoiding the portal so Demonaica can't warp straight to it and curb stomp it. I have to deal with a lieutenant tower to do this, but that's not my biggest worry. I'm on default - 1 for the combat difficulty, so I should be able to survive at worst.
I actually did do some testing of difficulty settings, and the gap between each one is extraordinary. Featherweight is a complete joke because of the massive degree that it nerfs everything, even compared to the one that I'm on, just a step above that. That might be something for the polish list. Maybe if I can succeed at this game, I'll try the highest or smallest map size and see how the game scales on those. I also totally didn't know what the grasslands with groves did or that they were even grasslands with groves because... well, you can't select them without purifying them. From the start I saw two level up towers. Gotta get those before Demonaica even leaves his house. The little trees on grasslands barely are even visible for me when given such shinies as those.


This brings up a specific point I keep meaning to mention.

Purification, there's one big problem with it: You cant tell just which tiles are going to be purified.   There's been times when I'd kinda like to avoid opening up another warp, but I purify somewhat near it, and bam, it opens up even though it looks like it shouldnt.   Also the game doesnt point out when the tiles you use to purify are actually in those "wall" tiles, the ones that you need to knock down with survivors to enter.  It can make it seem like a strange dead end at times, when in fact the tile you need to unlock further tiles is right next to you.