Some Feedback

[primordialthought]

I'm liking the game. It's a pretty big departure from the first game but I'm warming to it. Definitely like the new art stye. 


The controls are somewhat difficult to get used to, and you have to rebind them: the initial layout makes absolutely no sense. But once you figure something out and gt used to the way it works, it's ok.

There isn't a crouch/move option, which is odd and sort of frustrating, and has lead to me getting stuck on bits of cave dives where there wasn't a way to progress without the ability to crouch and move.
Similarly there isn't much animation blending - Crouch+shoot doesn't crouch and shoot so you end up standing there with projectiles hitting you in the face but not doing anything, it's weird.

There's no reason/time to build anything - you're moving people away from the overlord, and they're throwing tantrums about not having housing or farms or other buildings... but why bother if it's just getting destroyed a turn or two later? Half the time I don't seem to be able to build things anyway. Add to this that there doesn't seem to be any valid reason to not have everyone on the same square, moving together. It's like you have a choice: Someone builds something, that will be destroyed, and nobody moves, and then someone dies. Or you do the more logical thing, move everyone away from the overlord... and then people starve to death and kill each other.
The overlord movement is really odd, too. I can't tell if he's moving two squares or four squares or what, per turn.  He just destroys things and remains about two or three tiles away...

Information - The irony of not having enough information, is hilarious, in comparison the first game where you arguably had too much at once. So this led to:

Area/Loot/scrap: I had no idea that loot was even there until I looked at grassland description/cave description and realised there was a reason to go to already purified squares. I think maybe it's the giant warning that comes up every time which sort of sound like: "You can go here, but it's pretty pointless. Just go purify another square..."
Added to that, when I dd finally explore, expecting any kind of loot I was sorely disappointed. I must have checked out about 15+ areas and not found a single thing, but tokens.

Tokens: I have fifteen of them. What are they for? Why do I have them? What do I do with them? I remember they were mentioned early on, but it was brief and seemingly inconsequential.... I haven't found an option in any of the menus to use them or figure out their purpose. Some information would be nice.

Pathfinding AI: Often the lack of it actually, and somewhat amusingly, makes mobs harder. I'm thinking of bats here, for the most part. They fly into terrain tiles and then you either move and they hit you, or you're stuck... It's not a major thing, but it's jarring. A bat will follow you under a ledge and just keep trying to fly upwards, so when you get close enough they fly upwards and hit you. Unless you have a homing spell, you don't really have a way of outmaneuvering them, but only because they're so stupid. In a game where the combat is supposed to be slightly more tactical than the first, I found this frustrating.

Other than that it's fun.

[madcow]

By the way, the reason there isn't a crouch + move is because of feats later on (like powerslide and miniaturize).

[LaughingThesaurus]

I will throw in some feedback here, since I really don't feel like it's necessary to put in another thread.

I played the alpha way back when. Had serious problems with difficulty being basically a gigantic massive block of pure diamond in the way of progress. Installed it on steam (I appear to have a second key now?) and played the beta. I think every single issue literally that I had with it is cured. Completely. I'm only posting here about it because I was told that I have to eat.
I have one major beef, and that's with the new control thing that was added. It needs a toggle in the options. It's really, really bad for playing with a controller. It'd be awesome for playing with keyboard, and I definitely appreciate it for that. But, it means that when I want to jump and shoot straight to snipe around corners, I jump and fire almost directly at the ceiling. Not quite ideal.

But yeah, Arcen, you guys have done a pretty stellar job with the alpha. I feel as though I did a really bad job testing it, but I like to think my frustration with it made at least some impact in that front.

[madcow]

I will agree with thinking the game is pretty awesome. The newest control addition was a step back, but I think the issue I have with it is a bug moreso than a design addition - and I'm sure it'll get patched up.

I do think (beyond the obvious polish and and artwork/enemy variety/bug fixes) that the strategic mode doesn't quite feel right. I'm not sure what it needs exactly, it just doesn't click with me as well as the actual gameplay part.

[LaughingThesaurus]

The thing is, in the extent of my game (not very far. Like, 11 turns in?), I've had to put a lot of thought into decisions. I've got a little desert town and Demonaica is having a field day tearing apart the city that we had lots of stuff in before. I'm thinking that for now, we'll be hopping between cities and keeping as little downtime as possible. I've got to make a decision to head towards a level up tower, since I just finished up a research facility and really, more than anything, I actually want the next tier of spells. I have two little nitpicks though.

1. There's no handy list of what strategic things to go for. I don't know where I can build farms, for instance. Those unreached tiles, how can I actually use them? I need to know that before I can properly strategize.  There is, of course, the basic "Hey, get food and scrap and avoid the overlord" summary, but that's all I know of. I don't know the specifics of what to do to accomplish those things aside from the basics in the tutorial (as in, survive on low food until my farmland isn't anywhere near the overlord anymore). So, how do I make new farms? All of that. Those map tiles that I can't step on that aren't blackened. I want information on them.
2. It's just weird to me how there is only one and precisely one mission allowed per turn. I understand that if that weren't the case, the game would be absurdly easy. But, if I order one guy to destroy terrain, the other guys are just sitting on their hands. Like, what do they do that tires them out so much? As such, I have to adjust my plans for more of a long term game, and that actually does make sense. Still, it's just weird in terms of the world itself. Maybe they passively scavenge wherever you leave them or something? I don't really know.

The actual in the field basic gameplay seems fine to me still. Enemies are near around 59% strength or something. I'm one level below Adept, and I've been surviving pretty well. I haven't had any enraging fights against lieutenants or anything so far. I think they still need work, and that they're still in the process of getting work done, but they're so much more feasible now. I accidentally did a cave at 89% strength, at level 3, and I think just because of perks actually providing more tangible of a benefit, I actually managed my way through it so much more easily than the good old 'die a bunch than ragequit' my previous game had going for it. The basic gameplay's fun, though I almost wish I could up the difficulty by half a step temporarily. We'll see how this entire game plays out though. The thing is, the fact that so few enemies are implemented mean that the gameplay feels wrong in certain areas. So, it's not something I can really give complete feedback on.

[madcow]

I think the big thing that I would like to see in the strategic mode is scouting. You can only see a short distance away from the purified area, and unless you have the tiles memorized it's hard to plan ahead. If for instance I really want to find a research station, I have no clue what direction to go so I just have to purify in random directions or based on what's directly in front of me without being able to consider long term directions to take.

I'm not an expert at the strategic mode either. I've gone through maybe 30 turns in a single game (which had a horrible DF-esque downward spiral of morale and infighting and probably would have resulted in a lost game) - so definitely room to play more. It just feels like that aspect could use an undefined -something-.

The platforming aspect in levels is pretty great though. And I have confidence the strategic mode will click too, afterall - This. Is. Arcen!

[LaughingThesaurus]

I'm in a bit of a scrap panic at the moment. I mean, Demonaica is smart. He saw my weakness before I knew it existed. Otherwise, my morale's been pretty good. I'm on turn 12 only, though. Just got tier 2 mage classes. I should let their ridiculously different abilities really sink in before I try to go any further in this game, but it's been good so far. The plan is to capture housing while Demonaica destroys it to survive, then keep getting scrap and rebuilding factories

[Misery]

The thing is, in the extent of my game (not very far. Like, 11 turns in?), I've had to put a lot of thought into decisions. I've got a little desert town and Demonaica is having a field day tearing apart the city that we had lots of stuff in before. I'm thinking that for now, we'll be hopping between cities and keeping as little downtime as possible. I've got to make a decision to head towards a level up tower, since I just finished up a research facility and really, more than anything, I actually want the next tier of spells. I have two little nitpicks though.

1. There's no handy list of what strategic things to go for. I don't know where I can build farms, for instance. Those unreached tiles, how can I actually use them? I need to know that before I can properly strategize.  There is, of course, the basic "Hey, get food and scrap and avoid the overlord" summary, but that's all I know of. I don't know the specifics of what to do to accomplish those things aside from the basics in the tutorial (as in, survive on low food until my farmland isn't anywhere near the overlord anymore). So, how do I make new farms? All of that. Those map tiles that I can't step on that aren't blackened. I want information on them.
2. It's just weird to me how there is only one and precisely one mission allowed per turn. I understand that if that weren't the case, the game would be absurdly easy. But, if I order one guy to destroy terrain, the other guys are just sitting on their hands. Like, what do they do that tires them out so much? As such, I have to adjust my plans for more of a long term game, and that actually does make sense. Still, it's just weird in terms of the world itself. Maybe they passively scavenge wherever you leave them or something? I don't really know.

The actual in the field basic gameplay seems fine to me still. Enemies are near around 59% strength or something. I'm one level below Adept, and I've been surviving pretty well. I haven't had any enraging fights against lieutenants or anything so far. I think they still need work, and that they're still in the process of getting work done, but they're so much more feasible now. I accidentally did a cave at 89% strength, at level 3, and I think just because of perks actually providing more tangible of a benefit, I actually managed my way through it so much more easily than the good old 'die a bunch than ragequit' my previous game had going for it. The basic gameplay's fun, though I almost wish I could up the difficulty by half a step temporarily. We'll see how this entire game plays out though. The thing is, the fact that so few enemies are implemented mean that the gameplay feels wrong in certain areas. So, it's not something I can really give complete feedback on.

It seems to me that the biggest problem with the strategic mode right now is very simple: You cannot learn exactly what a given tile/structure does until your guy can stand on it, as you cannot open a menu on it otherwise.

Some things about that mode are explained pretty well.... such as the fact that you want to get lots of food and scrap, and have plenty of housing.  It points this out pretty well.   But it doesnt point out, say, how many different types of ways there are of producing food.  A player starting out for the first time will know about the basic "farmland" tile, but they wont know that many ocean shallows tiles can be turned into a covered farm, or other things.  Even for tiles that you cannot actually do anything with, yet can see, it should allow an option to point to them and get an explanation as to what they are, and exactly what kinds of building options they allow you when intact or destroyed, and what their effect is when intact.   It's made even more necessary by the very high number of tiles and structures there are in the game.... so very many to learn about, and the more you learn about, the more strategic options are available to you.

And I agree on the one-dispatch-per-turn thing somewhat.   I think the mechanic, gameplay-wise, is just about perfect as it is, but it needs, like, some kind of story explanation as to WHY they cant do more than one per turn total. 

[LaughingThesaurus]

I'm with you. The way I see it, how are you supposed to make informed strategic decisions in a strategy game without actually knowing what's going into it? In AI War, you can view literally every building and unit in the game, all of their stats and marks and mechanics, all right there. Given enough time, you can find every factor of every game mechanic from a single menu. In this strategy game, you kind of can't. You don't know all the ways to get resources, or what all the map tiles do, or anything like that. The thing is, I need to really just know how well I can handle any situation I'm in and complete the game (if I can). I mean, if I can do it without this information, then it shouldn't really be so bad, right? That means the amount of information given is functional. I'd still like to point at things that are in sight but that you can't step on, regardless.
One thing I'm curious about is what happens if you die without a crystal... on the subject of feedback. Fingers crossed that it's not just an outright game over.

[MouldyK]

I'm with you. The way I see it, how are you supposed to make informed strategic decisions in a strategy game without actually knowing what's going into it? In AI War, you can view literally every building and unit in the game, all of their stats and marks and mechanics, all right there. Given enough time, you can find every factor of every game mechanic from a single menu. In this strategy game, you kind of can't. You don't know all the ways to get resources, or what all the map tiles do, or anything like that. The thing is, I need to really just know how well I can handle any situation I'm in and complete the game (if I can). I mean, if I can do it without this information, then it shouldn't really be so bad, right? That means the amount of information given is functional. I'd still like to point at things that are in sight but that you can't step on, regardless.
One thing I'm curious about is what happens if you die without a crystal... on the subject of feedback. Fingers crossed that it's not just an outright game over.

Once you destroy the Oblivion Crystal, each death costs 100 Mana.


And on the subject of the map tiles, I think maybe that should be added with a bestiary as like information which could be jotted down for you in a menu once you have seen it. I mean I would not mind the braving the unknown to see a building, then it puts it down what it does for the next playthrough as the first game should usually be one of discovery I think.


However, on the Strategic Overview, if you see something on the map like a Heat Dispersal Tower, it tells you "Purify Heat Dispersal Tower" or "Destroy Skelebot Research Facility" for example. So information is there, just have to look.

[LaughingThesaurus]

And on the subject of the map tiles, I think maybe that should be added with a bestiary as like information which could be jotted down for you in a menu once you have seen it. I mean I would not mind the braving the unknown to see a building, then it puts it down what it does for the next playthrough as the first game should usually be one of discovery I think.

The problem I have with that is the fact that in a strategy game, it's nice to be able to make informed decisions. if I wasted 3 turns purifying in a direction only to realize "Oh wait, it turns out that building is just a useless building that makes things adjacent to it stronger", then I'm going to be upset. Just outright not being able to make that informed decision is not going to be a good thing for a first game in my opinion. The only real way this would work out well is if the big major important things have a red flag saying "GO HERE" and you discover the subtleties on your own on your way between red flags. There was a nearby level up tower, for instance, and ocean shallows between me and it. So, what do I do? I go to the level up tower there and find out that ocean shallows are, at least for now, absolutely bloody useless... unless they already have buildings.
I'm with you on the bestiary though. Ultimately, what you end up doing in any kind of action game is discovering stuff on the fly and adapting to it immediately (which, I think, is where lives on console games kind come from). Strategy games generally give you time to think for a pretty good reason.

[MouldyK]

Well they do inform you of those things throughout the game:

"On the turn directly before Demonaica emerges from his keep (which varies by strategic difficulty), there is now a text interjection explaining in-character what is going to happen and what you need to do about it.
On the start of turn 8, there's a new text interjection explaining about level-up towers. It's also at this point that your strategic overlay starts showing these.
On the start of turn 11, there's a text interjection about scrap, and the strategic overlay starts showing more about scrap.
On the start of turn 14, there's a text interjection explaining amplifier towers, and the strategic overlay starts tracking them.
On the start of turn 17, there's a text interjection explaining ivory towers, and the strategic overlay starts tracking them.
On the start of turn 23, there's a text interjection with more information about level-up towers.
On the start of turn 26, there's a text interjection explaining skelebot research facilities, and the strategic overlay starts tracking them.
On the start of turn 29, there's a text interjection explaining the need for lots of mana in the late game, and the strategic overlay starts tracking mana sources."

But if people are not paying attention to it, then that might be an issue.

I don't know, so far, I had no trouble playing my first playthrough when I went in dark as I always checked the Stragetic Overview when I saw something new and if the overlay did not say there was something new I have found, then I generally thought it useless. But when it said "Purify the Heat Dispersal Tower", you can bet your life I went to that as I needed it to get to the 2nd half of my world...THROUGH THE GATES OF HELL!

[LaughingThesaurus]

Well...
like, I always encounter those things before the game ever tells me about them, is the thing. I found a mana generator on like turn 12, and until I was told that I need mana to come back from the dead, I didn't know why it was useful. After all, I was just going to strategically carefully destroy only the exact things that I need to destroy since that's all that I knew mana did.

[primordialthought]

I went back through some stuff and realised what was going on with the merc tokens. I think perhaps again it's a case of too much information at once. like the first game, it bombards you with all this info at the start, and you're just trying to figure your way around and get used to the controls, and then for a while it goes silent, and then gives you more info. It looks like they've paced it out better this time, but at the beginning you just get overwhelmed.  I'm not sure there's  way around that first time.

I guess there'll be an equivalent encyclopedia put in eventually. I found that very helpful in the first game, where there was so much that you just didn't know until you checked it out in the encyclopedia or learnt through trial and error. I don't know, maybe that's just the nature of the beast. 

[LaughingThesaurus]

Yeah, the information does need paced well, as well. Maybe a bit of an optional encyclopedia on everything for when the player really really wants to just know everything. I mean, there'll probably be a wiki for that anyway.
Also; my morale in this game is going down. Not my survivors. Mine. I'm on like 60 food and 60 scrap and Demonaica loves to nom on farms and factories. I'm not great at strategy.