So I'm downloading that demo...

[x4000]

And by the way, I don't think I've said it yet, which was an oversight, but: thanks very much for your feedback on this.  I'd already been eying the skelebot guards a bit as they have been problematic in places beyond the tutorial.  But that they are so thoroughly derailing the tutorial itself is just unconscionable.  Aside from the fact that they're just not much fun to play against, in practice, anywhere in the game.

Anyway, so thanks.


And for the elite versions, I was still thinking that those would basically be something else other than just the invincibility thing: that mechanic needs to go in general.  Generally speaking, a melee unit that walks around (as opposed to flying) is almost useless in this game, because it is so easy to get sniped by all your ranged stuff.  So the elite version would have some sort of ranged component, different from the skelebot sniper, and that would be that.  I was thinking of giving them something like an extra-long ice-cross type of effect.

[chemical_art]

current skelebots made me feel like this in those tunnels as I was on the water shooting at them:

[chemical_art]

And by the way, I don't think I've said it yet, which was an oversight, but: thanks very much for your feedback on this.  I'd already been eying the skelebot guards a bit as they have been problematic in places beyond the tutorial.  But that they are so thoroughly derailing the tutorial itself is just unconscionable.  Aside from the fact that they're just not much fun to play against, in practice, anywhere in the game.

Anyway, so thanks.


And for the elite versions, I was still thinking that those would basically be something else other than just the invincibility thing: that mechanic needs to go in general.  Generally speaking, a melee unit that walks around (as opposed to flying) is almost useless in this game, because it is so easy to get sniped by all your ranged stuff.  So the elite version would have some sort of ranged component, different from the skelebot sniper, and that would be that.  I was thinking of giving them something like an extra-long ice-cross type of effect.

It's no problem! Thank you for listening!

The skelebots were the only bad thing of it. My first gut instinct was to hide above them, away, and shoot them. It was amused to see there were immune to the damage. So I thought "ok, i go down and run away? There are like the crystals, 2 - 3 shots and dead? NOPE! That set in motion the deaths...If I could have hit them at the beginning and see they need 6 shots I would have been much more cautious from the start, and may not have died at all to them.

The miniboss itself was actually good! At first I was in an annoying war of attrition at the entrance by using the ground hugging ability of ball lightning, but had to retreat. The second time around I went over the boss and found that alcove thing where I could hide and fire occasionally. THAT was fun, in retrospect. I was just so off put I was annoyed, lol.

[Coppermantis]

I actually couldn't beat the tutorial level when I started a new world recently because of all the changes. I'm glad to see things are being softened up.

[KDR_11k]

I think if you want to prevent basic skelebots from being easy to cheese then have them go into a sniper stance and start shooting at the player when they can't reach him. Obviously less competently than skelebot snipers.

[keith.lamothe]

I tend to just hit invincible guards with miasma whip followed really fast with a fireball, and while they're deflecting the former they're not invincible to the latter.  Pretty fun in a zelda-2 kind of way.  But I guess you don't have miasma whip in the intro mission

[goodgimp]

So I hope the Skelebot Guards aren't going away permanently? I liked the mechanic but I also struggled mightily with the tutorial due to those blocking buggers. That being said, while they may be too tough for the intro, I'd still like to see them. I think it's a fun mechanic if used in moderation!

[x4000]

So I hope the Skelebot Guards aren't going away permanently? I liked the mechanic but I also struggled mightily with the tutorial due to those blocking buggers. That being said, while they may be too tough for the intro, I'd still like to see them. I think it's a fun mechanic if used in moderation!

I think Skelebot Guards are gone for good, but using that general mechanic with some bosses in particular seems interesting to me.  As it is the grunts can be really scary when they are coming at you down a hallway in a narrow building, so that's bad enough.

[Bluddy]

I think you could still use the same mechanic, but instead of complete 100% damage block you could have a damage reduction. Just like 75% elemental resistance isn't very fun, 100% damage reduction is often not fun. But if it's just an extra 20%, then it becomes a cool element that adds to the variety.

[x4000]

That's a really good point, actually.

[KDR_11k]

I think you could still use the same mechanic, but instead of complete 100% damage block you could have a damage reduction. Just like 75% elemental resistance isn't very fun, 100% damage reduction is often not fun. But if it's just an extra 20%, then it becomes a cool element that adds to the variety.

I'm not sure. The idea was to prevent players from cheesing the skelebots by hiding outside their reach, simply sticking a lower damage reduction on there makes them take more time to cheese but still cheesable.

[Penumbra]

What if it was like a player's damage shield instead? The shield would have more life than the skelebots have normally, in addition to the old regeneration ability they had. They could even run away when it gets low.

That way, it would be really impracticable to kill them while immobile. But, you could make them get out of the way or even kill them if needed through it.

Not for the standard grunts we have now, but maybe bring the guards back with a kind of "near" invincibility.

[x4000]

I think that this is a subject for later: there are bigger fish to fry in the shorter term, honestly.

[goodgimp]

Maybe instead of invulnerability they could reflect certain projectiles. Maybe a giant rock would still smash them and a miasma whip could still get 'em, but shoot a fireball or lightning orb at them and have it reflected at your face!

[Bluddy]

I'm not sure. The idea was to prevent players from cheesing the skelebots by hiding outside their reach, simply sticking a lower damage reduction on there makes them take more time to cheese but still cheesable.

Good point. I kinda lost sight of the main goal, which was to make melee enemies a threat in a game where you can jump around and shoot from far away.

I think the main approach to this should be to look at it from the perspective of the skelebot handling incoming threats. I suggest this behavior:
- If the skelebot recognizes a threat it can reach, it goes into offensive mode and runs to its target.
- If the skelebot sees no threat (ie. nothing it can reach), it wanders around and repairs any damage to itself.
- Any incoming projectile has a chance of being reflected at all times, since it's an incoming threat.
- A skelebot can reach any body found on its plane, or something that jumped off of its plane a few seconds ago. It times out so that if you're jumping far away, it eventually gives up on you.

This gives you an incentive not to cheese(ie attack from somewhere where the skelebot can't get you): the skelebot both heals itself and deflects shots that may hit you. If you're on the skelebot's plane and jumping around (while staying on that plane), the skelebot identifies you as a threat and never heals itself. As an added incentive, the skelebot could deflect with a much lower percentage while you're on its plane, since it's focused on you.

Several players could use one player as bait, which I think makes sense -- it's a legitimate multiplayer tactic.