Re: Poll: Thoughts on profession books?

[BobTheJanitor]

First, boo for locking the topic while I was in the middle of a 10 minute diatribe! And the forum just eats the post if that happens, with no warning. Just 'sorry topic locked' and no way to recover the text. Quality design! Grumble grumble grumble...

Any way, let me condense what I said since I just spent a whole bunch of time thinking through it:

Drop the profession books, but hopefully find some better method of spell delivery rather than just flat out handing spells to players. The problems with this are:

1 - New player overload. Giving people 20 spells right off the bat will just confuse people, they won't know what to aim for.
2 - Following on that, too much content is wasted content. If I get a new spell every half hour, I'll play with each one, at least a bit. If I get all of them at once, some of them are bound to be ignored.
3 - Gating content is important for retaining player interest in the game. New spell unlocks should be a carrot that keeps you interested in progressing, not something you get for starting a new game.

Probably something else that I forget. I hope it's not a faux pas to start a new topic just to reply to a locked topic!

[relmz32]

I think these are really good points.  Why not have spells work like the early strategy game does, how every level or two you get new strategic options, and have every spells that are unlocked by a certain civ level (or memory crystal number)? 

[x4000]

Sorry on the topic lock, but otherwise people just keep posting on it for days or weeks, thinking it's still open, when there's a poll involved.  And usually not reading the various responses in the thread, just commenting on the original topic, and thus rehashing what has already been discussed.

Please note -- spells are gated already, based on when you can get the resource to be able to craft them.  Try crafting... well, about half the spells right from the start, already.  Not going to happen, because you don't have the stuff to craft with and the stuff doesn't appear for a few levels!  That's only going to get more pronounced.  The profession books were superfluous partly because there's already a much better gating system actively being used.

[BobTheJanitor]

This will probably change going forward, but right now I think you can get access to almost every gem type for any spell relatively quickly. Each gem seems to have some alternative, so that it can be found in [high level tile] or [lower level tile]. Like I haven't seen any gems that can only be found in the deep, or the lava flats.  I am playing in the 20s now, though, so maybe starting out it's a little more carefully paced, I don't recall. But again, I'd expect that's going to expand to many more gem types down the road.

I do feel like something is lost by not holding out the chance to learn a new spell recipe as a reward for playing the game. Sure, you then have to craft it, but why not tie learning it to gameplay as well? Just, more engaging gameplay than exploring random houses ad infinitum. Even if it's as straightforward as 'you are level 2, choose a new spell recipe'. Then they player feels like they have done something to earn this new spell, and they feel inclined to go do it again.

Also, too many options can be as bad as too few. If I'm trying to decide what to do next and my options are to go after one of 30 different spells and I have no idea which does what... I might be more inclined to go play TF2 instead! There's something to be said for freedom, but there's also a good case for steering the player down certain paths. Maybe even just some sort of suggestions mechanism. Like the way Civ IV says 'you can build these 20 things in your city, but here's a couple suggestions'. Brand new players don't end up feeling like they're going to tank their game by picking terrible options at a time when they don't know the difference between a bank, a courthouse, and a theater.

[Terraziel]

Gem's i would wager are not what he means, the other spell crafting components are, and they generally cover your assertions

If, for example, walnuts only spawn in regions of level 10 or higher then that is functionally equivalent to you unlocking the spell at level 10.

If a spell requires a rare commodity then the act of conquering the tower is what makes me feel like i have done something to earn the spell.

The overwhelmed with options concern is also counteracted by the way that spells are crafted, because you choose ingredients and see what spell is created, rather than selecting a specific spell, it makes the number of spells presented to you start small and then increase as you play and acquire more ingredients.

[x4000]

Right, I don't think any of the concerns listed there are actually things that this changes one way or the other:

1. Previously, you could "learn" a spell that you could not craft for another 70+ levels, for instance.

2. Now, you still can't craft anything that you can't get the resources for yet, and so there is still plenty of gating.  In terms of hiding the option that you can't craft yet because of not having yet encountered the resources, we can do that as easily now as we could before.

3. Yes, all gem types are available right from the start -- those are just the most basic possible recipe ingredient of all.  It's the stuff you add to those gems that is where the more impressive spells come from.


Here's the list of the current gating that's in the game:
    2: Quartz Rock
    5: Copper Ore, Sunstone, Moonstone
    8: Cherry
    10: Iron Ore, Magma
    14: Plum
    70: Coral

That's always been in there, that's not new, but the interface will make it clearer now.

Anyway, having a game progression that is satisfying and which doles out content as you go is something I am 100%, totally for.  The problem was that the profession books contributed nothing to that progression, and in fact masked the progression by adding a second non-progression on top of the real progression.  This very thread is a great example of how confusing it was: the existence of the tech books completely masked the fact that the resources for crafting were being gated, I think.

[Armanant]

Wow, that poll wasn't around very long XD I read through the thread and I will add mention of one thing that the books do that I've found handy - civ XP. I've actually gone looking for spellbooks specifically just to get civ levels. Not to mention the initial 7 books you can read at the start (would be 8 once >3 crafting recepies were available) gave you a good leg up towards civ level 2

 It's also the only way to get xp that doesn't involve killing bosses or going through possibly very high level areas (wind shelters are another, but any new wind shelters are probably going to be in areas 10 levels above you..).

I definitley agree that it is a very clunky mechanic that adds nothing toward actual crafting and is better off gone, but maybe there should be some way for a user to get XP that is linked to exploration instead of combat?

[x4000]

but maybe there should be some way for a user to get XP that is linked to exploration instead of combat?

Already planned, and I think in mantis.  And we have lots of other planned ways to get EXP in general, anyhow.  The tech books were just the first, and rather poor, way of doing that.

[Armanant]

Already planned, and I think in mantis.  And we have lots of other planned ways to get EXP in general, anyhow.  The tech books were just the first, and rather poor, way of doing that.

Ahh great to hear Gotta say your iteration pace is blistering, makes me feel slow as in my development 

[x4000]

We try. 

[eRe4s3r]

eRe4s3r -- finding the right gems requires no grinding or luck.  Simply look at any gem's tooltip, and it tells you what region has a ton of them.  Then go to that region, enter the caves, and open your dungeon map.  Go to the gem room in question (there are six per cave), and you have a 3/4 chance of each one being the one you're there for.  It's pretty quick to pick up several.

At any rate, I'm not remotely considering general revisions to the way that the gems and such, and the general progression of player skill, at this time -- that's one of the things that seems to be working really well.  The only way it depends on luck is if you just go into random regions rather than the ones that actually give the gem types you're specifically looking for.

Actually... i was gonna reply to that 

It is random! The regions decide what gems are in them, but the levels for regions, and regions themselves are RANDOM - and with that i mean that i already had it happen to me that i didn't have a single desert tile in 30 moves in each direction ;/

Anyhows, this is even more depressing because you can't actually read the tooltip when you are on the world map nor can you make yourself a "objective list" with like, i need 200 red shards, 2 gems of THAT type, and 1 gem of that type style, so its kinda hard to remember what each region is supposed to contain.

So if you are not gonna change the basic framework at least consider giving us an in-game notebook and some way to create objectives for ourselves that are tracked by the game (like
1) Find desert tile level 9+
2) Find cave
3) Find Gem Veign of type X

I know this sounds like a weird request, but its only working "alright" if you got 2 or 3 spells, with 200 its going to be total chaos remembering what you need and don't need and more importantly, where to find what you need.

[x4000]

No worries, I was expecting a response, but I didn't want lots of people responding to the original poll still.

In terms of the lack of desert and so forth, that part is indeed random, that's true.  With lots more spells, of course, you'll have more options and be able to work around that.

In terms of taking notes, that's certainly a potential but I don't think we're there yet.  More to the point there has been a request for a "tech tree" for a while, which just shows the recipes you have access to, and the materials that make them up, and the tooltips for said materials.  That's something that you'd be able to view in the field, and which would solve most of such issues I think.  If we need to get to the point of taking notes then that's something we can do, but honestly I'd rather avoid that for as long as possible because that's a crutch that can mask other issues -- such as the lack of a recipe list, for instance.

[eRe4s3r]

Thats true ,) I guess its not a good time to be talking about these kinds of things yet, a tech tree, where like, an actual shaman researches new spells and is involved in the upgrade process, maybe even with some "moral dependent bonus or negative effect" could be awesome.

Anyway i understand why you keep it this way, but generally speaking i think there ought to be more caves (as an example, of 6 level 7 junkyards only 1 had a cave ;/ this is mainly why i am so confused by the system, caves should be random, but whether to even *find* caves should not be too random..

[x4000]

Well, for tech tree, this would just be a display-only thing: something you can look at to get more information, not something involved in unlocking anything.  Profession books were our basic tech tree, and even that was way too complex for no real gain.  I really don't see going down that road again, though profession books are still there for the crest and enchant related stuff (and it makes sense there).

But just a way to SEE that information in the field is something that's definitely going to be needed.

For the caves, there again it really varies.  Having caves be TOO common makes them feel really uninteresting in a lot of ways, I think.  And if you use NPCs to explore the tiles before you go there, all you have to do is pop in (takes two seconds) to see which regions actually have caves, since the caves are marked on the dungeon map.

Anyway, there's still a lot to do, for sure, but to some extent it's kind of like how planets in AI War can have mark IV right next to your home planet.  I think that sort of randomization makes for interesting unique challenges.  The thing is, in AI War you have all the tools to deal with that right from the start, and here that's not yet fully the case.  Mostly, but not fully.

[zebramatt]

I get that you want people to be able to customise their load-out right from the start, but I think starting with a gem (or two) of every type is actually too much too soon. I'd say give us three random gems, maybe, weighted in such a way as to ensure we're capable of defending ourselves.

Hell, maybe you could even do something like: you automatically get one gem of type equivalent to settlement region plus one or two random gems, tiered at an appropriate level; for each settlement you find. Sure, everyone would start out therefore with one ice type gem but I think it adds a more reasonable curve to when you can make each sort of spell.

And I also think that (for good or ill) the profession books actually did add a non-trivial level of gating before. I didn't think they were terribly intuitive, as I've said - not least of all because their gating system was completely random - but I actually had to look for them. And what's more, I might find one and then bring it home and not get the option I wanted, so I'd have to go back out again.

Now, it's pretty simple to check where the ingredients you need are, go out into the world, collect some, come back, bam, spell's made. You can do that with all the spells at tier 1 right from the start at the moment. Obviously as you add more, the gem restriction comes into play - which is a proper restriction because you have to fight bosses to get gems.

In short, I support the removal of profession books but also agree with the sentiment that there needs to be more to the gating system and the way it presents unlocks to you, rather than the current "here's everything at level 1" approach it currently uses.