Author Topic: Quick note that 0.505 is out.  (Read 3161 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« on: September 28, 2011, 08:14:45 pm »
I'll do a full post about this and 0.506 later tonight, but I wanted to get this one out with some fixes that folks could be testing (or just plain enjoying) in the meantime: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AVWW_-_Beta_Series_1_Release_Notes#Beta_0.505
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2011, 08:36:31 pm »
I know this is from a couple of versions back now but having had a rather nasty experience fighting a boss for a good fifteen minutes (it was an epic battle) only to die with it sitting on 15hp, I'm not sure I'm keen on the idea that the next time I fight him he'll be right back to normal, whereas my poor character is permanently dead!

Poor old Blunts died in vain!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2011, 09:34:04 pm »
Well, assuming that your character had not died fully, and had left, it would be the same in terms of him coming back in fully armed and healed -- if the situation looks hopeless, there's nothing to stop you from fleeing and saving your character and coming back with heavy munitions, is kind of what I'm saying.  There's just too many ways to cheese a bosses-retain-damage system, including devaluing characters even more by just throwing them one at a time at the boss until the boss is finally whittled down by sheer attrition. 

I'd rather have folks weigh their options and actually retreat if death looks likely, rather than just pressing on until the bitter end in every fight.  But the decision to run is way too obvious if you're about to die and you know you can just come back anytime after healing and re-equiping and finish right where you were.  There's no tension then, there's no "should I stay and press my advantage or should I cut and run."

Anyway, those were the general motivations, among others discussed in more depth elsewhere.  But those were the most relevant ones to your comments.



In other news, I'm actually going to just call it a night and work on 0.506 in the morning.  Things are looking pretty clean from the sounds of it, no crashes or showstoppers that I can see, and I need sleep badly.  Not smart to push that too far.

Talk to everyone in the morning!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Tayrtahn

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2011, 10:47:03 pm »
By all means, get some sleep! I'm quite aware of how well code tends to come out when exhausted.


I think I've encountered a few issues with the new release though.

1) Desert burrowers do not seem to be able to damage the player (some sparkles appear, but no damage is taken).

2) Boss Amoeba projectiles are not removed when they contact walls. With the rate at which the bosses fire the projectiles, it doesn't take long for a room to become a sea of wavy blue pain. I tried to fight one just a moment ago, and was instantly killed when I jumped up to the area the boss was hanging out in. Admittedly, the amoeba is one level higher than me, but still: I just went splat!

I went back with a new character, killed my ghost, and zipped up a copy of the world... to Mantis I go!

Offline Telasro

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 01:03:55 am »


1) Desert burrowers do not seem to be able to damage the player (some sparkles appear, but no damage is taken).


I'm having similar...issues. I think it is all melee enemies, since skelebots, rhinos, burrowers, and bats all fail to damage me.

Offline Commiesalami

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2011, 01:48:51 am »
Ill vouch for this as well

Offline Commiesalami

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 01:54:41 am »

2) Boss Amoeba projectiles are not removed when they contact walls. With the rate at which the bosses fire the projectiles, it doesn't take long for a room to become a sea of wavy blue pain. I tried to fight one just a moment ago, and was instantly killed when I jumped up to the area the boss was hanging out in. Admittedly, the amoeba is one level higher than me, but still: I just went splat!


The blue amoebas are near impossible now to beat. Ill admit that I'm not too amazing at the game, But I should at least be able to beat a boss that is 3 levels under me and not get burned to burned by having no place to run to in the first 15 seconds of the fight.

Also I've suddenly been having bosses not spawn in their boss rooms, not sure if that is intentional or not.  All I've been facing tonight are blue amoebas and empty boss rooms.

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2011, 04:19:36 am »
Well, assuming that your character had not died fully, and had left, it would be the same in terms of him coming back in fully armed and healed -- if the situation looks hopeless, there's nothing to stop you from fleeing and saving your character and coming back with heavy munitions, is kind of what I'm saying.  There's just too many ways to cheese a bosses-retain-damage system, including devaluing characters even more by just throwing them one at a time at the boss until the boss is finally whittled down by sheer attrition. 

I'd rather have folks weigh their options and actually retreat if death looks likely, rather than just pressing on until the bitter end in every fight.  But the decision to run is way too obvious if you're about to die and you know you can just come back anytime after healing and re-equiping and finish right where you were.  There's no tension then, there's no "should I stay and press my advantage or should I cut and run."

Anyway, those were the general motivations, among others discussed in more depth elsewhere.  But those were the most relevant ones to your comments.

Oh, I understand the reasons for making the change.

And I'm not entirely against the result. Certainly in Metroid if a boss kills you, you're dead and have to start over - and those fights were awesome.

I suppose, in fact, the resultant lack of tension to which you refer is precisely my problem. In Metroid, you're at a boss so that's it: you're stuck until you kill or are killed. First time around you're just cornered and there's not a whole lot you can do about it, but next time you recognise what going through that type of door means - and prepare for what's on the other side mentally. It's gripping stuff.

But then if Samus dies, she doesn't die permanently. Clearly in Valley, locking the boss door behind you is a major no-no.

In Valley, with permadeath around the corner, my options, if I've spent time gathering potions and trecking across the land, then fighting a boss for fifteen, twenty minutes, are non existent. "Run like a coward and try again from scratch" or "die like a hero and try again with additional ghost to contend with." That's a pretty bleak outlook.

Especially when the boss in question is so very nearly dead (a few hp) and all I need to do to kill it is dodge a couple of bats, a few beams of energy and land one final blow - whilst I'm sitting on well over half hp but have just run dry of health potions. Of course I'm going to go for it. Sure it's a gamble - if my character dies, his ghost is going to ramp up the difficulty - but if I don't, I've got another 30, 40 minutes gearing up for the same damn fight and ploughing on in there to try my hand again. And if I still don't do it then? I have to run away and try again!

Knowing that, the only sensible tactic in future is an extremely conservative approach to potion gathering and boss fights. Double or triple the time I spend hoarding pots and don't take any risks in boss battles at all - play it safe in an altogether different battle of attrition. (I'll just hide behind this wall and ice cross this thing to death. Even if it gets me, these fifty health potions should keep me covered!)

Now, that all sounds a bit ranty but I genuinely do understand why the changes were made, for the most part. Popping out of a chunk to gear up some more, popping back in to chip away at the boss is no more noble a tactic than hiding behind a full inventory of health potions. I'm also, as I mentioned, quite a big fan of having to tackle a boss in a single visit. That's definitely good for my hero complex.

But I'm actually (and it sounds odd even to me) advocating that if you die, the fact that a vengeful ghost appears should be punishment enough for the risk you took in just trying to finish the boss off. Valley's pretty unique for an action-exploration game, in that when you die you materially lose a lot more than just the time you spent on the boss. You lose the time you spent preparing for the boss and a character you'd become attached to - and to boot, you've now got an evil ghost in the world!

The skinny? What if bosses only retain the health you left them at (or even regenerated up to a certain level - a third health, or something) when you died fighting them? That is, when there is a vengeful ghost with them. You still gotta fight the ghosts so throwing characters into the meat grinder becomes massively counter-productive anyway. And if the ghosts aren't sufficient disincentive, buff 'em. That's what they're for, after all - to add gameplay weight to your death.


Actually, it occurs to me that if you implemented some (admittedly rather more complex) logic such that death in boss battles left the boss at dimished health and also locked their room for portal scrolls - so you had to 'port in the next room down (or outside the building or chunk or whatever) - then spawned the ghosts in the room below and locked the door up until the ghost was dealt with... then that would solve the meat grinder problem; give players who wanted to risk dying like a hero some payoff; and create an interesting new gameplay scenario whilst you're at it.

Phew. Or you could just leave it like it is. No biggie!  :)

Offline Terraziel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 06:49:59 am »


1) Desert burrowers do not seem to be able to damage the player (some sparkles appear, but no damage is taken).


I'm having similar...issues. I think it is all melee enemies, since skelebots, rhinos, burrowers, and bats all fail to damage me.

Just adding my confirmation for this, it even covers bosses based off of them.

Offline Ozymandiaz

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • King of kings
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 07:17:29 am »
Been trying a few days now, but it has occured to me I got no clue what I am doing :) (though to be fair, I only had an hour or two each night for two days)

I did find some micro bosses and kill them however, and I got some nice spells crafted. Energy Wave thingie, and Ice Cross (and the very nice ride the lightning). I keep running out of mana though, and potions seem a bit scarce comapred to my spell use. Maybe I should not spam spell all the time. ;)

Is there any non mana consumption ways of dealing effective damage?

Edit: So far I am enjoyng myself though, great music, scenery and so far great gameplay :D
We are the architects of our own existence

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 10:17:00 am »
Thanks for the notes on the melee monsters, will be investigating.

zebramatt -- Whew, that was a lot of thoughts.  I hear what you're saying, and my goal is definitely not to encourage super conservative play where you hardly have any potions, etc. 

But the fact remains that if you battle through to a boss room and have hardly any potions to start with, you might be better off warping back out of the region, going back to town and healing up, getting a few more potions, and then returning.  This isn't exactly new either -- if I'm playing Zelda, and I'm all out of fairies when I get to a boss monster, then likely I'm going to leave and get back a cache of fairies before going in.  In AVWW, thanks to warp scrolls, there's not even the same time tax of walking through the stupid dungeon for a second time (though it is always a shorter path in Zelda the second time, you still have to walk).

The other thing I'd like to mention is that your arsenal really isn't fully there yet.  You don't yet have any shield spells or similar, for example.  The bottom line is that I'd like to continue with it like this for a while, and let the game grow up a bit more around the expectation that when you fight a boss, you have to do it all in one go.  I think that's a reasonable expectation, not that that invalidates your other concerns.  But I'd rather try to think of alternative solutions to your concerns, rather than making bosses sometimes retain their health status and sometimes not -- I'm going to get endless confused bug reports about a mechanic like that, if nothing else.

In the end of that doesn't work out, then we can always punt and see what does make sense, but I want to at least give this one a go first.  I'd certainly be wide open to ideas from you on spells or other mechanics that could better solve your concerns without having the boss health not reset on death.


Ozymandiaz -- There's not much that doesn't cost mana at the moment in terms of dealing damage, but there will be some things that you can craft at the outfitter and then throw.  Glad you're enjoying yourself, anyhow! :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2011, 10:49:49 am »
You know, one thing which might help is these little monsters dropping health consumables. I think I maybe had one health pot too few to take this big guy on. If his minions had let me save just one potion for the final push (by giving me an alternative way of topping my health up, just slightly) then I coulda nailed the bugger without turning tail and losing face.

That said, I might be able to field a few spell ideas which might help too.

In fact, one thing which did occur to me was some sort of gory retribution spell which, if you have sufficient magic on death, causes a huge explosion just before your demise. Of course, that genuinely would encourage a meat grinder approach to killing things. Then again, I genuinely do see the vengeful ghosts as the solution to that concern. If they were immune to retribution damage, it could work.

Or perhaps a scroll which if you WOULD have died and you have sufficient magic, burns mana instead of health, at a rate of x2 or something. Maybe just a standard mana shield type jobbie would do the business instead of that, though.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2011, 10:56:31 am »
Yeah, balance on things like that are really tricky since characters are in infinite supply.  In terms of the health drops from the small monsters, that's actually coming so that might solve a lot of it right there.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline PlasmaChroma

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2011, 11:05:12 am »
2) Boss Amoeba projectiles are not removed when they contact walls.

To add to this, I've noticed the Amoeba fights last night were probably causing my system to drop frames.  I think I'm playing with Vsync on, so the jarring flip from 60fps to 30fps seems to be happening with projectile saturation.

Also, I've got an absolute screamer of a system, so it seems the extra logic or rendering on those projectiles must be somewhat costly.  I'm running on an Intel i7-980X & Nvidia GTX 470.

Tonight I'll probably try finding one and turn Vsync off to check, not sure if it's just going over 16ms on frames or something else.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Quick note that 0.505 is out.
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2011, 11:06:58 am »
2) Boss Amoeba projectiles are not removed when they contact walls.

To add to this, I've noticed the Amoeba fights last night were probably causing my system to drop frames.  I think I'm playing with Vsync on, so the jarring flip from 60fps to 30fps seems to be happening with projectile saturation.

Also, I've got an absolute screamer of a system, so it seems the extra logic or rendering on those projectiles must be somewhat costly.  I'm running on an Intel i7-980X & Nvidia GTX 470.

Tonight I'll probably try finding one and turn Vsync off to check, not sure if it's just going over 16ms on frames or something else.

Already fixed, the projectile count will be a lot lower.  And yeah, they are expensive to render as with most particle systems -- there were far more onscreen than should have been.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!