Author Topic: Q & A  (Read 183167 times)

Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #570 on: November 29, 2011, 01:20:05 am »
Umm...

I entered a stormy region. (Lvl. 5, I'm level 6) and pressed 3 (ball lightning.) I hear the sound and then I'm dead.

Also, my inventory looks like this:




Worthy of note, a lot of the pink squares have odd names such as "Absorb Attractive Items From Container, Skelebor Circle of Fire (I don't have Circle of Fire), Skelebot sniper shot, Use ability object: infinite, Convert Building Site to Building and so on.

What did I do? D:

Clicking some of the more strange icons causes a tidal wave of errors.Also, I have some spells I've never crafted in my inventory now. Storm dash/RTL are mysteriously missing. It hurts.

EDIT: apparently my initial death was because upon loading, my ball lighting was replaced by "Ball lighting explosion" which kills me instantly. I'm racking up quite a few dead characters.

EDIT2: I can use the skelebot sniper shot. Fun.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 01:37:27 am by Coppermantis »
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline x4000

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #571 on: November 29, 2011, 09:48:48 am »
0.544 is now out, sorry about that.

* Fixed a bug wherein many of the abilities in player ability bars from past versions of the game were improperly offset. The downside of this fix is that any new abilities that were picked up during 0.543 will be similarly wrong. Whatever you do, don't use any of the "pink box" abilities, as many of them will suicide your character. Just dump those out of your inventory somewhere discreet in your world. Sorry about the goof!
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #572 on: November 29, 2011, 10:35:58 am »
0.544 is now out, sorry about that.

* Fixed a bug wherein many of the abilities in player ability bars from past versions of the game were improperly offset. The downside of this fix is that any new abilities that were picked up during 0.543 will be similarly wrong. Whatever you do, don't use any of the "pink box" abilities, as many of them will suicide your character. Just dump those out of your inventory somewhere discreet in your world. Sorry about the goof!

Thanks for the fix so quickly! Wow.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline x4000

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #573 on: November 29, 2011, 11:05:38 am »
My pleasure!
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Offline Coppermantis

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #574 on: November 29, 2011, 07:20:04 pm »
Will the player ever encounter Slimes in other places than the tutorial? It seems odd that they're pretty abundant in this one region but nowhere to be found elsewhere.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline x4000

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #575 on: November 29, 2011, 07:23:06 pm »
Will the player ever encounter Slimes in other places than the tutorial? It seems odd that they're pretty abundant in this one region but nowhere to be found elsewhere.

Yes, but I have to make more kinds of slimes first.
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Offline Dizzard

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #576 on: December 01, 2011, 01:45:20 pm »
How many people will be able to play in a multiplayer world at once?

Will entering a multiplayer game be like how it's done with Terraria/Minecraft?

Lastly, what will we be able to achieve in multiplayer that will feel different than playing single player? Like will we be able to sort of claim responsibility for specific settlements. (like I'm the mayor/leader of "TownA" you're the mayor/leader of "TownB"
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 01:47:14 pm by Dizzard »

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #577 on: December 01, 2011, 02:26:30 pm »
How many people will be able to play in a multiplayer world at once?

Not sure right now, that's going to depend a lot on how fast the server is, and how fast it's upload connection is. There is no hard limit right now that I'm aware of.

Will entering a multiplayer game be like how it's done with Terraria/Minecraft?

This isn't set in stone yet, AFAIK, but as it stands right now, you're either going to be dropped into the first settlement or the intro mission the first time. Then, every time you log in after that, you will start from the last place you were in, just like single player works now.

Lastly, what will we be able to achieve in multiplayer that will feel different than playing single player? Like will we be able to sort of claim responsibility for specific settlements. (like I'm the mayor/leader of "TownA" you're the mayor/leader of "TownB"

At the moment, there won't really be any different things you can achieve in MP over SP. Except that you will be able to fight bosses/ go exploring together.

Offline Dizzard

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #578 on: December 01, 2011, 02:36:38 pm »
You know, I said before that I wasn't that interested in multiplayer...

but I think now it might be pretty neat to have a second world I go to and develop with other people. To go and then come back and see how much has changed while I was offline.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 02:38:15 pm by Dizzard »

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #579 on: December 01, 2011, 02:40:39 pm »
You know, I said before that I wasn't that interested in multiplayer...

but I think now it might be pretty neat to have a second world I go to and develop with other people. To go and then come back and see how much has changed while I was offline.

I'm kinda the same way. As a general rule in most games, multiplayer has no interest for me. But, I can definitely see how I might be interested in taking part in a world with other players.

Offline x4000

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #580 on: December 01, 2011, 03:24:57 pm »
For multiplayer player count, that's something that we'll discover through the beta period, to be honest.  I am thinking that over the Internet something like 8ish players should be really reasonable on most setups, and maybe substantially more than that.  The new multiplayer model we have is incredibly forgiving of lag and bad ping without affecting your gameplay, so it should be pretty robust.

In terms of LAN play, the only barrier should really be the RAM on the server, plus general CPU processing power on the server if everyone is going in different directions at once and triggering a lot of chunk transitions that require mapgen to do its thing constantly.  But actually this is super forgiving on the CPU on the server aside from mapgen, too, so that's more of an intermittent concern in most scenarios.  I really think that 30 players ought to be reasonable, and maybe more than that, but it remains to be seen for sure as the most we've done so far is 2. ;)

And that's concurrent players, by the way.  The worlds could have thousands of players if not all of them wanted to be online at once.  It would save the state and such of all of them on the server, bringing them back where they left off, but as long as not too many of them were online at once for the specific server and network specs to handle, they could all rotate in and out as much as they wanted.
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Offline @B0FH

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #581 on: December 01, 2011, 03:48:45 pm »
In terms of LAN play, the only barrier should really be the RAM on the server....

Won't the limit be Unity though rather than physical RAM? For example I have 8GB on my desktop, but regularly run into memory errors on AI War still (with my extreme games).  Or will there be a separate (x64?) dedicated server executable?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #582 on: December 01, 2011, 03:55:23 pm »
Yes, it's the unity managed heap size limit (800MB) that would be the limiting factor.  That doesn't mean 800MB on task-manager/process-explorer, as the ram footprint noted there includes unmanaged memory (where most if not all of the actual textures are, etc).
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Offline Olreich

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #583 on: December 02, 2011, 06:54:27 pm »
So, we have a 800MB memory limit for characters. How much does any one character cost against that? Is that thousands of characters, or is it 100? What's the maximum memory consumption an AVWW server can take (before the program explodes because it can't address any more memory)?

What are the bandwidth rates like for active players? Could I reasonably set up a dedicated server in my basement and run it off my 10Mbps connection with 1000 characters (assuming infinite machine power)?

Is the current server multithreaded? How many cores can it scale to?

How many regions (based on averages) could be loaded at any one time into server memory?

I'm just looking for rough numbers, but an idea of max theoretical limits on multiplayer could help to give us an idea on how massive our worlds can be, and also give the crazy ones who want to set up dedicated servers ideas on what they should be running on.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Q & A
« Reply #584 on: December 02, 2011, 07:20:52 pm »
So, we have a 800MB memory limit for characters.
~800MB for all managed memory, which includes GameEntity objects (the actual in-game objects and actors), NPCStateDescriptor objects (the additional data stored on settlement folks, certain bosses, etc), the World object, the SuperRegion and Region objects (world map stuff), the RegionInteriorData objects for any regions that currently have players inside them, the actual Chunk objects for any chunks that actually have players inside them.  All the localized text in the game (and probably all the other strings too).  Tons and tons of other stuff that would take too long to list here.

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How much does any one character cost against that?
The character itself?  Not much at all, probably no more than a few kilobytes.

The main cost is the Chunk objects, which have a big ol' array of Tile objects (each of which can have multiple TileLayer objects), as well as all those GameEntity objects (every tree, every platform, every monster, every projectile, etc, though there is some partitioning into sub-data objects based on category and thus a tree does not need as much memory as a monster).  I don't know offhand how big a chunk is at this stage in the game's development, but whatever that is divided into, say, 500MB will probably give you the maximum number of "safe" players on a server.  BUT, if there's 10 players logged into a server and 9 of them are all in a single chunk and the other is somewhere else, that's basically the same RAM load as 2 players in 2 separate chunks.

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What's the maximum memory consumption an AVWW server can take (before the program explodes because it can't address any more memory)?
Total, including unmanaged memory?  I've seen my client process get north of 3GB before dying (edit: this was during some buggy infinite loop tomfoolery, not normal operation), so it's capable of getting pretty far up there.  But all the chunks and that other stuff I just talked about needs to fit into about 800 megabytes or out-of-memory crashes tend to start happening.


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What are the bandwidth rates like for active players? Could I reasonably set up a dedicated server in my basement and run it off my 10Mbps connection with 1000 characters (assuming infinite machine power)?
Is that 10 Mbits download, or 10Mbits upload?  The upload is the bottleneck for the server: the data coming in from the clients isn't all that big, though with 1000 characters it might get pretty bad.  But sending data out to 1000 characters, particularly if one or more of them is asking for something big like the initial world message or a chunk or whatever (which are actually pretty small because they're compressed) is probably more than a normal residential connection is prepared to handle.  I'm not even sure how well your computer would do handling that many separate connections, actively sending data or not.  But I'm not a networking expert.

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Is the current server multithreaded? How many cores can it scale to?
Entirely singlethreaded.  The server doesn't actually do much cpu work (almost all the in-chunk simulation is local to the clients) except to generate new chunks when needed (and, at level-up, new regions), and if that gets to be bad we can probably rework the chunk-requesting message processing to hand off the chunk generation to a separate thread and defer execution of that transition until the chunk is ready.


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How many regions (based on averages) could be loaded at any one time into server memory?
I don't know the average footprint of a region offhand, but it's pretty small because we keep most of the "interior data" (the dungeon map stuff, chunk metadata) on disk unless something needs it.  It used to be that a server running by itself after just loading a world only held about 50MB, and it didn't grow much as regions were added.  Right now the numbers are different but there's been some changes that might have the server loading more than it needs to.   Anyway: how many regions?  A whole lot.  One of the old alpha worlds has like 12000 regions, and the single-player was able to hold that, and I think that's even before we split out the interior data.


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I'm just looking for rough numbers, but an idea of max theoretical limits on multiplayer could help to give us an idea on how massive our worlds can be, and also give the crazy ones who want to set up dedicated servers ideas on what they should be running on.
The multiplayer opt-in alpha is available now so you're welcome to give it a try.  I'm sorry that I don't have much in the way of numbers for you right now, pretty tired :)  Mainly when I think about those questions my response is "does it need to be more efficient?  I can probably optimize it".  It's more a matter of developing the game quickly and then finding the bottlenecks, and if they're bad fixing them.  But Chris and I are both performance-optimization junkies so once the game's off the ground we'll probably have you guys running dedicated servers on your toasters (not really; but I like to think so).


Anyway, the bottleneck to many-players-servers that you're most likely to A) hit and B) be-able-to-control is the server's upload connection.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 07:22:52 pm by keith.lamothe »
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