Purification Overhaul

[Pepisolo]

One thing that I dislike about this game is that the current implementation of purification seems a little uninspired. As I understand it there is supposed to be some kind of evil corruption spreading across the land, but as a player you'd be hard pressed to actually notice it. Currently the only difference between a purified area and a corrupted one is the presence of a rather quaint windmill near the end of the level.  As an illustration, I've attached  two screenshots. One is of a corrupted area, the other is purified. Can you spot which is which?

Not only is this dreadfully boring, but it is also actually harming the integration between the two main components of the game. It feels like there is a disconnect between what is happening on the strategic map and what is actually going on in the platforming levels. Let's say that you successfully clear an area, making it safe for survivors, what is the reward for revisiting the same tile? Aside from the disappearance of the windmill, nothing has changed. If the game hadn't told you so, you wouldn't know that you'd even purified the area at all. A similar problem is present on the strategic view, corrupted areas simply look like unscouted areas -- there is no sense of evil at all.

So how can we improve upon this? For a start, a much greater distinction needs to be made between corrupted and purified areas. For corrupted areas you could add some harsh weather effects, gale force winds, lightning, fog. You could darken the area with lighting effects, add some special eerie music or even make a slight palette change to the slice. For purified areas an interesting change might be to simply remove the monsters from the area (at least on the surface) -- how those survivors can farm with all those monsters roaming around is a mystery to me. Change the music to an upbeat theme instead. Then simply use the standard areas, which seem reasonably bright and pure anyway. As for the strategic map, just make the corrupted areas stand out more, make them dark purple like Demonaica's castle or add a small storm animation, anything to help differentiate them from the purified areas.

Other more advanced things to look into in order to decrease the feeling of disconnect between the strategy and the platforming would be to add basic buildings to any areas (minus monsters) on which they are built, with any survivors milling around if present. For example, if you've cleansed an area and built a farm plot let the player see for themselves the result of their heroism. Survivors are visible in camp on any tiles in which they're present, which is nice but much more could be done.

That's about it I think. Thanks for reading!  Any comments or further ideas on the topic appreciated. Cheers!

[x4000]

Generally speaking, most of the time you're playing in corrupted areas, and thus you'd be in bad weather or whatever other ill effects constantly throughout most of the game.  The only exceptions would be the overlord's keep and going for perk tokens or similar, which would then be suspiciously calm and easy after the "normalcy" of the whirling melee of corruption.

Anyway, that's why I didn't do that originally, though I had planned to on paper before I got to implementing (it sounded great to me until I really thought it through, working on our original design prior to alpha).

[madcow]

From a purely aesthetic point of view, it would be amusing (and likely a waste of resources, I'll be honest) if there were peaceful critters that roamed around in purified zones. Bunny rabbits and the like.

Granted, that idea is shamelessly inspired from sonic where little animals popped out of enemies when you killed them.

[Pepisolo]

Generally speaking, most of the time you're playing in corrupted areas, and thus you'd be in bad weather or whatever other ill effects constantly throughout most of the game.  The only exceptions would be the overlord's keep and going for perk tokens or similar, which would then be suspiciously calm and easy after the "normalcy" of the whirling melee of corruption.

Anyway, that's why I didn't do that originally, though I had planned to on paper before I got to implementing (it sounded great to me until I really thought it through, working on our original design prior to alpha).

Hi Chris

I have to ask, why is your game called "A Valley Without Wind"? As I understood it, the wind was intended to to be a pervasive force of evil spreading across the land, plaguing its inhabitants, with the ultimate goal of the player being to banish it (hence the title). With a backdrop like this, is it not reasonable that the presence of the wind should be somewhat oppressive? At the moment it's practically non-existent, so much so that the game title has pretty much lost all its original aspirational meaning and reads more like a description of the current game environments.

While I can understand your desire to rein in the wind effects a little in order to not overwhelm the player, there must be a way to include some effects in a way that would complement the story and enhance immersion without subjecting the player to a constant stream of "the whirling melee of corruption." One safeguard already in place is the presence of indoor areas. These would, of course, not be subject to corrupt wind effects.

One other idea would be to vary the severity of the wind effects depending on which tile you are attempting to purify. For example, a corrupt tile with three other corrupt tiles adjacent might give full strength corruption effects. A tile with only two corrupt tiles adjacent would give some scaled back corruption effects etc.

Would it be so bad to have many windy areas? It's perfectly in keeping with the back-story and would give the game a more original aesthetic. If done carefully it might prove very immersive without being too overbearing. That's about it. Thanks!

From a purely aesthetic point of view, it would be amusing (and likely a waste of resources, I'll be honest) if there were peaceful critters that roamed around in purified zones. Bunny rabbits and the like.

Granted, that idea is shamelessly inspired from sonic where little animals popped out of enemies when you killed them.

Just imagining it -- yep that'd be pretty cool. A likely waste of resources... oh yes, although how about the critter pack DLC?

[doubtful]

I have to agree with the OP that some effect or graphic reminding you that "hey, isn't there some kinda storm here--whether literal or metaphorical--I'm supposed to be getting rid of?" would be appropriate.

That said, until I read this post, it never really occurred to me that the areas with a windstorm generator...had no windstorm (or storms of any other sort, lol).

So in the end, it's really not critical and certainly at this stage prioritizing finishing the actual "meat" of the content would be a wise move anyhow. ^_^

...but one does still wonder at times, "Where's the wind?"

[LaughingThesaurus]

That actually is weird, as well. Like, you don't see any sign of wind or corruption or anything. You simply can't go to places shrouded in whatever this corruption is. Like, in Valley 1, you always could go to windy places, but it was a bloody awful idea because of the health drain effect-- especially if you went further out to the point that you'd die very quickly.
This is the kind of thing that comes before official release, when the game's nearly out of beta, though. Unless there was just going to be no sign of stormy areas in the end whatsoever, it should work out.

[Panopticon]

The whole time I've been playing Valley 2 I've see the corruption as the force that has me boxed into a cage-match for survival with Demonaica. The Windstorm Generators are merely at the edge of the corruption so they are approachable, and the area they are in doesn't suffer directly from their effect. Outside of the places you can travel are where the truly terrible effects of the Wind are, and since you don't go there you never really see it. The game itself is taking place within the Valley Without Wind, which you keep expanding as you continue to purify regions. Just because an area isn't corrupted doesn't mean it's not dangerous. It's just that the truly corrupted areas are too dangerous to travel.

[zespri]

The whole time I've been playing Valley 2 I've see the corruption as the force that has me boxed into a cage-match for survival with Demonaica. The Windstorm Generators are merely at the edge of the corruption so they are approachable, and the area they are in doesn't suffer directly from their effect. Outside of the places you can travel are where the truly terrible effects of the Wind are, and since you don't go there you never really see it. The game itself is taking place within the Valley Without Wind, which you keep expanding as you continue to purify regions. Just because an area isn't corrupted doesn't mean it's not dangerous. It's just that the truly corrupted areas are too dangerous to travel.

Oh, I like this explanation a lot! Thank you for sharing!

[Pepisolo]

The whole time I've been playing Valley 2 I've see the corruption as the force that has me boxed into a cage-match for survival with Demonaica.

This would still be the case if the corruption was actually present on the unpurified areas themselves. Except, rather than leave the player to imagine how Demonaica's power is keeping you contained, you would actually be showing them.

The Windstorm Generators are merely at the edge of the corruption so they are approachable, and the area they are in doesn't suffer directly from their effect.

Why not? I see no good story-telling reason to fully abstract the effects of the generators off-screen, leaving it to the player to deduce that this is the case. This seems more like a valiant justification of the current lacklustre implementation.

Outside of the places you can travel are where the truly terrible effects of the Wind are, and since you don't go there you never really see it.

Again, this would still be the case if elements of the corruption were actually visible to the player, although actually showing some of these effects would more easily allow the player to imagine the full terror that lies deeper within the corruption.

The game itself is taking place within the Valley Without Wind, which you keep expanding as you continue to purify regions.

Without an actual presence of wind, the concept of expansion of the "Valley Without Wind" seems rather hollow.

Just because an area isn't corrupted doesn't mean it's not dangerous.

But should an uncorrupted area be equally as dangerous as a purified area? To the point of indistinguishability?

It's just that the truly corrupted areas are too dangerous to travel

Why not show the player why it would be dangerous to travel rather than just telling them it is?

[Panopticon]

You seem to be focused on some superficial elements of the presentation for storytelling concerns. Arcen's primary concern is gameplay, it always has been and it's one of the reasons I love them. You got a very nice reply from the head honcho himself as to why it's not portrayed that way in the game for reasons of playability.

Another reason why is the artwork is commissioned and already in progress. What you are suggesting would take an overhaul of many already existing art assets, much of which is in the finishing stage. Let's forget about money now and assume that Arcen has super deep pockets. It still wouldn't be a good idea because of the time involved. I don't see why they need to revamp a large bulk of the artwork to do something that may not work out. Arcen has limited manpower as well as money, and Valley 2 isn't the only thing they have to work on.

As for my interpretation of the forces at work in Valley 2, that's how I read it from what's given to me in the game. I'm not really interested in hypothetical "why nots." Lots of times something sounds cool on paper, or fires your imagination, but it's not always practical or a good idea to implement. The second post in this thread is the best reason why it is the way it is.

[tigersfan]

Also, we're going to be adding a cut scene in the beginning of the game. This should help flesh the story out a bit before you get started.

[Pepisolo]

You seem to be focused on some superficial elements of the presentation for storytelling concerns. Arcen's primary concern is gameplay, it always has been and it's one of the reasons I love them.

I agree that gameplay is of paramount importance; however, story is also important and one does not necessarily need to suffer to accommodate the other.

You got a very nice reply from the head honcho himself as to why it's not portrayed that way in the game for reasons of playability.

Yes, but I see no harm in questioning the correctness of such a decision. Feedback can often spark new ideas. Compromises can be made. Sometimes even better solutions can spring forth as a result. Is there really no middle-ground between the constant barrage of the "whirling melee of corruption" and the almost complete absence of the story's chief oppressive force? Maybe not, but to my mind, it is still worthwhile to discuss the possibilities.

Another reason why is the artwork is commissioned and already in progress. What you are suggesting would take an overhaul of many already existing art assets, much of which is in the finishing stage. Let's forget about money now and assume that Arcen has super deep pockets. It still wouldn't be a good idea because of the time involved. I don't see why they need to revamp a large bulk of the artwork to do something that may not work out. Arcen has limited manpower as well as money, and Valley 2 isn't the only thing they have to work on.

Well, only the developers really know how much resources would be required, but I would imagine the costs wouldn't be too outlandish. Indeed, I think that if the developer truly believed an implementation could be created which would improve the story and not impact negatively on gameplay, then they would not flinch at the resources involved. Maybe such an implementation could be conceived.

As for my interpretation of the forces at work in Valley 2, that's how I read it from what's given to me in the game. I'm not really interested in hypothetical "why nots."

Your interpretation, although necessarily contrived, was admirable and should probably be adopted by the developers as the standard reasoning for the almost complete lack of wind in the game; however, this does not mean that the current implementation of corruption is not unnatural and colourless.

Lots of times something sounds cool on paper, or fires your imagination, but it's not always practical or a good idea to implement. The second post in this thread is the best reason why it is the way it is.

If gameplay is improved at the expense of immersion, then I will accept it and be glad. I'm  just not convinced that the story needs to be sacrificed on this occasion.

Also, we're going to be adding a cut scene in the beginning of the game. This should help flesh the story out a bit before you get started.

Cool, sounds good.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Really I'd be happy if we just saw storms instead of grayed out tiles outside of our movable area.

[x4000]

In terms of extra expenditures of resources for "nice to haves," I can safely say there is no amount too small for us to not be interested in that at the moment.  I am literally having to go into debt in the five figures to get the current batch of projects finished without laying off Josh and Erik.

Really I'd be happy if we just saw storms instead of grayed out tiles outside of our movable area.

We considered doing this, but there's no way to do that without making it almost impossible to see what is going on out there.  You need to be able to visually interpret those tiles to know where you want to travel.

[Pepisolo]

In terms of extra expenditures of resources for "nice to haves," I can safely say there is no amount too small for us to not be interested in that at the moment.  I am literally having to go into debt in the five figures to get the current batch of projects finished without laying off Josh and Erik.

If resources are that tight, then forget it. I'll concentrate future efforts on bug-fixing help and smaller ideas. Up until now I was more concerned that this game seemed to be heading on a 6/10 trajectory when I was hoping for it to be a 8/10+ title, hence the slightly broader improvement ideas. Thanks for the info, it will help me focus my beta-testing efforts.