Poll: Keeping knockback on player spells.

[Gemzo]

Melee enemies without knockback resistance tend to be pretty pointless as they never reach you to hurt you!

Yes but knockback will tend to be pretty useless if it doesn't work on what you actually need it to work on.

[x4000]

Yes, this is also true.  But with all spells having some degree of knockback, we get into a circular argument here.  I think the solution is to make not all spells (not remotely all spells) have knockback.  And then it can work just like you want against things like the treasure chests, etc.  It actually then becomes yet another tactical loadout choice you make before entering a region, which I also like.

[Misery]

Yes, this is also true.  But with all spells having some degree of knockback, we get into a circular argument here.  I think the solution is to make not all spells (not remotely all spells) have knockback.  And then it can work just like you want against things like the treasure chests, etc.  It actually then becomes yet another tactical loadout choice you make before entering a region, which I also like.

It all sounds good to me, just depends on which spells it ends up on;  stuff like the quick AoE ammo spells makes sense to have knockback, but things like the Forgician's primary shot are just annoying if it has it.

This might be a good way to differentiate things in spell classes that have two straight-shot spells.

[Panopticon]

Yeah, I like the idea of certain spells having knockback while others lack it completely. Like you said, then it becomes another tactical choice and that's a good thing. In the interest of transparency could the spells with knockback have it listed in their description? A knockback stat like caliber would be even better. That reminds me, it'd be cool to see how much ammo a spell uses in its description. Eventually anyway, I know right now that sort of thing is low priority.

[Pepisolo]

How about tracking knockback with caliber to some extent. Large caliber spells tend to have larger slow firing projectiles. Maybe these type of spells would benefit the most from knockback. Visually the player could also associate a big projectile and slower rate of fire as a spell more likely to have knock back. Fully charged shots seem like a  prime candidate for knockback. I also agree that I don't like knockback on fast firing spells like the Forg primary. Just use it on some of the weightier spells.

[x4000]

I think that tying them together too tightly with another mechanic really limits flexibility, personally.

[Pepisolo]

I think that tying them together too tightly with another mechanic really limits flexibility, personally.

Maybe. I guess you'll just have to tailor it for each specific spell variant on its own merits, then? I would certainly think about adding knockback to those slow firing/slow projectile spells rather than fast firing ones, though.  Maybe we should just come up with  a list of spells that knockback might be best on?

[nas1m]

Ditching knockback alltogether would make some enemies incredibly hard I think. Knockback is more or less all that keeps me alive if having to fight enemies like the ghosts from the deep - especially in buildings...

[Gemzo]

I think that tying them together too tightly with another mechanic really limits flexibility, personally.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't shot size and caliber tied together like that? I'm only assuming this because of how Hytelist's pre-fix 200 caliber shots were so big they couldn't fit through tight passages.

[BobTheJanitor]

On the buggy knock-forward problem, wouldn't it be possible (caveat, I have no idea how programming works, you use a keyboard with just a 1 and a 0 on it right?) to have it always calculate the knockback direction based on where the player is, instead of worrying about where the spell is coming from? Or whatever it does now, it's kind of hard to tell. This might look odd in a few scenarios, firing a spell while falling and then having the angle to you change when it hits the monster, but I think overall it would lead to better, more consistent behavior. I know in Valley 1 I died a few times due to a whip or a melee range spell deciding to bounce a monster right into my face.

Whether knockback is kept as-is or relegated to just a few specific spells, having it always knock them in a direction that could be described as 'back' would be an important property, one would think.

[x4000]

Part 1:

* Entropy mass, gale mass, energy mass, and sea mass now fire much slower and have knockback capabilities.  This further differentiates them from the burst spells that they are paired with.

* None of the player spells have knockback anymore except for the reckless spells, the specifically-for-knockback spells, and the Mass spells that are paired with the burst spells.

* All of the monster knockback resistances have been re-evaluated, as have all the knockback strengths on the few player spells that retain the ability.  The net effect of all these changes is that those spells that have knockback are now far more useful against almost all mobile monsters, and the effects of the knockback is enough to make these tactically interesting in terms of actually knocking enemies away from you so that you can have more time to fire on them.

[x4000]

And here's the last bit!

* Finally solved the knock-forward problem by making it be based on the angle between the firing player and the monster at the time of impact of the spell, rather than anything to do with the spell itself.

Thanks Bob.