Arcen Games

General Category => A Valley Without Wind 1 & 2 => : x4000 January 30, 2012, 11:02:28 AM

: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 11:02:28 AM
The case against dynamic skies:
To be blunt, the dynamic skies are a performance hog.  As in, on any machine more than a few years old they make it unplayably laggy.  And on newer machines they still account for 90% of the graphcial load.

They are also.... well, they are a bit same-y.  Since they are based on real skies, they can only look so many different ways.  It's been a while since I used static skies, but switching to those really reminds me of how cool those look.  If I had just one set of skies to maintain rather than two, I think I could push that even farther.

There's also a number of glitches with dynamic skies.  Most of them I can fix, but there's one -- the little black lines that appear and curl around in the skies sometimes -- which is never going to be fixable by me.  And the guy who does Unisky, on which the dynamic skies are based, seems to have abandoned it.

What dynamic skies chiefly offers that static skies do not:
When they are working properly, they do look pretty cool.  However, like I said, they do get pretty same-y throughout all the various areas, so once you get used to dynamic skies that cool factor really fades a lot.

Static skies do support sunsets, sunrises, and nights.  However, they do not yet support the sun or moon rising and setting in the sky (though that would be easy to add, and I really should add it).

They also don't have any moving clouds.  That's the big thing in dynamic skies that makes them interesting, is tons of motion in the background from those clouds.  That would be impossible to achieve in the same fashion with static skies, but I could eventually work on some background cloud movements for static skies if folks were interested in that.  But probably prior to 1.0, that would simply mean the end of the moving clouds for now.

What do folks think?
Remembering that first impressions are really important, of course.  And that goes for videos and screenshots as well as actual gameplay.  If someone is underwhelmed why the graphics, that's bad.  But if their first experience is that the game is playing at 20fps instead of 60fps, then that's also bad.

I'm a bit torn, but you can probably tell that I'm thinking I should just dump the dynamic skies -- which are more trouble than they are worth, I'm starting to feel -- and push onward with making static skies look as good as I can make them within the time budget that we have before 1.0 ("shipping is also a feature," etc).

Thoughts?



EDIT: Updated to add a poll.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: zebramatt January 30, 2012, 11:20:00 AM
Can't use 'em, myself.

Don't mind if other people want to keep them, though!
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 11:21:16 AM
The population of people able to actually use them at all seems abysmally low, to be honest.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: KDR_11k January 30, 2012, 11:22:04 AM
I don't care but I don't think they look particularly good anyway. A problem might be that the dynamics are on a flat vertical plane which is not how the sky works in reality.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
A problem might be that the dynamics are on a flat vertical plane which is not how the sky works in reality.

They actually are on a dome, but we're using an orthographic camera at a very specific angle, and so that messes with it some.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: laughingman January 30, 2012, 11:24:13 AM
I voted they should probably be removed, mostly because it seems like a ton of extra work on your part for a small proportion of your intended audience. I would rather that time be spent on other content that the vast majority of players could enjoy.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 11:27:28 AM
That was my thought, too.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Toll January 30, 2012, 11:46:38 AM
I use them, but... to be honest, I don't even think about them most of the time. I honestly doubt I would've noticed them being gone unless you had brought this topic up, so I'm certainly not opposed to them being removed. And if they actually eat 90% of the graphics load... yeah, that's a lot of load for such a small perk.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: BobTheJanitor January 30, 2012, 11:48:41 AM
Voted either-or. I can use them just fine, and I do remember noticing that they were quite pretty at one point. But in general play I hardly pay attention to them. If they were replaced with static skies with the same level of graphical quality, I probably would barely notice the change. But when I do actually stop to look at them, they are quite striking... so there is that.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 12:01:16 PM
The reason for the insane graphics load from these skies is that they are being procedurally generated on your GPU.  It requires something like... I'm not sure exactly, but at least let's say 50ish floating point operations (mostly multiplies or similar) per pixel per frame.  It might actually be a lot higher than that.  At 1920x1280, that's 2,457,600 pixels in the first place.  Then that's 122,880,000 floating point operations in general per frame.  Or thereabouts.  If you're hoping to run at 60fps, then that's 7,372,800,000 floating point operations per second.

Is that math right?  Man that seems insane.  I can still run the game at well north of 60fps even with the dynamic skies on, but if you're wondering why these are such a load, that's why.  And that's why so few GPUs are able to run these.  At smaller screen resolutions the effect is much less severe: 1024x768 is just 786,434 pixels to fill, and thus 39,321,600 floating point operations per frame, and thus 2,359,296,000 floating point operations per second.  Well, actually that was less savings than I imagined, once I did the math.

And all of those operations are what is happening ASIDE from drawing anything from the actual game itself.  The game itself takes vastly fewer operations to draw than that, so 90% of the graphics load may have been undershooting it in a lot of cases, heh.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: keith.lamothe January 30, 2012, 12:04:47 PM
I think the dynamic skies are awesome, but I use static because I have integrated graphics.  Haven't tried them on my wife's new (middle-of-the-road) discrete card.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 12:06:53 PM
I think their motion and general quality is awesome, but I think that their colors leave a lot to be desired.  It tends to trend toward making everything blander and less saturated than the rest of the game, which is something I've been unable to fix with them.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 12:10:55 PM
Oh, and I also have a lot less control over dynamic skies than I do over static.  At least in a straightforward fashion.  I thought about making the various seasons have different lengths of days and nights (matching what you'd expect -- more sun in summer, more night in winter, etc), but that's not something I can really control with the dynamic skies without rewiring huge swathes of someone else's code and probably introducing tons of bugs in the process.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Underfot January 30, 2012, 12:12:55 PM
I actually do stop to watch and enjoy them from time to time.  I've actually never played with them disabled, so I can't do a real comparison.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Hearteater January 30, 2012, 12:19:41 PM
It's been awhile, but I just installed 10 patches to test this.  Wow, I really can't stand those dynamic skies.  The static skies just made the levels look so much nicer.  Part of it is an Uncanny Valley problem I think.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 12:22:13 PM
Hahaha, wow.  Most comments on the dynamic skies have been positive to neutral at worst.  I didn't create them in the first place, so I don't have any particular pride of authorship or anything.  I really love the way they look as well, aside from the things I've already mentioned (but these only came to bug me after months of staring at them all the time).  It's interesting to see how some others feel right from the start.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Dizzard January 30, 2012, 12:58:30 PM
Dynamic skies work fine for me but I don't like them, the clouds look strange imo.

They seem too liquid like.

So I voted probably should be removed.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: TechSY730 January 30, 2012, 01:05:43 PM
From what I could remember back in like the third public beta or so, they were nice looking, but I had to turn them off due to annoying amounts of lag.

If you do remove them, please keep the code around. They are a nice touch, and once the average graphic capabilities in the customers' PCs go up, you can reintroduce them (with touch ups) in a later major version.
Or maybe a less extreme option would be to have them off by default, even if the program can tell the computer can handle it without extreme amounts of lag, but give the user the option to turn it on, with the warning that it is a very intensive effect. (The current "blacklisting" of the option if the computer is not up to it, unless the user checks that advanced option override, can stay of course)
As others have pointed out, the perspective of it may need a touch up.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 01:09:43 PM
They pretty much are what they are -- there's not going to be much touching up of them, as it's third-party code that is difficult to maintain.  Something like the perspective in particular is almost impossible to change here.  If most people aren't liking them, then they should go away regardless of performance considerations, as maintaining two sets of sky logic is not my favorite thing to do.

And consumer hardware isn't likely to catch up anytime soon.  My GPU is now 5 years old, an nVidia 8800 GTS.  It was the most expensive card I'd ever bought when I got it, and it still works awesomely well for this sort of thing even now.  But it's been 5 years, and most cards that are less expensive than my 8800 still can't run this stuff. :/
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Hyfrydle January 30, 2012, 01:46:03 PM
I also have an 8800 GTS and no lag with the dynamic skies. They are nice to look at but in combat I don't have time for sightseeing so probably wouldn't miss them and if the performance can be improved allowing for more content so much the better.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: GrimerX January 30, 2012, 03:08:24 PM
I really like them!  I love procedurally generated things in general, so it's both eye and brain candy for me at the same time :-)

Also, over time GPUs will catch up -- unless you're having to maintain the code, I'd leave it in.  Moving it to 'opt-in' is fine.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Bluddy January 30, 2012, 03:11:35 PM
It works nicely on my 2011 MBP, but a 2d retro style indie game probably wants to appeal to people with slower computers, so I say let them go and work on getting the static skies to be as good as you can make them.

I've never had them off so far though, so I'm going to test that out and get back to you.

EDIT: OK yeah. They can go. I don't think they contribute enough and they also clash with the rest of the game's art.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: BobJustBob January 30, 2012, 04:26:24 PM
I was really impressed by them when I first started playing the game, but now I hardly notice them because I'm too focused on trying not to get hit. I'd miss them but I'd get over it.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: Coppermantis January 30, 2012, 06:41:34 PM
I turned Dynamic skies off long ago since they were hurting my performance pretty badly. So I wouldn't miss them too much but the option might be nice to have for higher-end machines.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: KingIsaacLinksr January 30, 2012, 08:15:16 PM
I took a look at them and personally would prefer you kept the dynamic skies.  But I also noticed that Dynamic causes some minor performance issues as well, but it did look better than the pink...background...thing.  I mostly noticed the issues near entrances to subterranean areas.  I'm not sure why it would cause that. 

So I'm thinking keep myself, and keep it opt-in.

King
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 08:18:12 PM
Pink background thing?  If you're seeing a pink background, then that's probably because dynamic skies aren't running at all.  The dynamic skies have clouds that are roiling and heavily animated.  Regular skies have really vibrant colors of blue or whatever else (sunset colors, sunrise, nighttime, etc), but don't have any motion to them.
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: KingIsaacLinksr January 30, 2012, 08:22:28 PM
Pink background thing?  If you're seeing a pink background, then that's probably because dynamic skies aren't running at all.  The dynamic skies have clouds that are roiling and heavily animated.  Regular skies have really vibrant colors of blue or whatever else (sunset colors, sunrise, nighttime, etc), but don't have any motion to them.

My bad, I meant that Dynamic skies are better than the pink blobs of clouds that are not dynamic.  Imo.  :P

King
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 30, 2012, 08:23:45 PM
I gotcha.  The pink blobs are just at sunset, you know. ;)
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: eRe4s3r January 30, 2012, 09:48:40 PM
Only remove them if you have a good or better looking replacement.. ;p

I see no impact on performance from them.. but then i play BF3 on ultra...
: Re: Poll: Is there anyone here particularly attached to dynamic skies?
: x4000 January 31, 2012, 04:45:04 PM
Okay, the next version is removing the dynamic skies, but now the "static" skies are actually animated instead: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AVWW_-_Beta_Series_2_Release_Notes#Beta_0.568

This should give us animations that are almost as good, colors that are better, better variance between areas, vastly better performance, and some new functionality in general such as the ability to have the daytime hours vary by season, etc.

Hopefully this winds up being as close to the "best of both worlds" as we can.