Out with upgrades, in with initial custom characters?

[BenMiff]

Attaching upgrade caps to lieutenant death sounds good, actually. However, I'd say that you shouldn't have to spend upgrades as soon as you get them; it'd be nice to be able to save them for a later decision.

However, I'm not sure how to deal with these caps when moving to a new continent, since a 10 upgrade character in a 5 upgrade tier would be throw difficulties out of whack. However, just taking them away seems a bit harsh and is a disincentive to leave the continent, and disabling them until you reach the appropriate tier makes it so you can't try a different upgrade outlay on a new continent.

Perhaps if upgrades are tracked seperately for each continent, it might overcome some of this (since losing the 5 upgrades is counterbalanced in part by getting to reallocate the other 5 again) as you draw on different skills. (The new continent reallocation would be free, but an upgrade reallocater could also be added to settlements to allow shifting around your upgrades as well; this would cost consciousness shards, though, to retain a reason to have multiple NPCs outfitted and so Glyph Transfer Scrolls remain of use; I'd suggest a 1,000 Consciousness Shard cost per upgrade point "removed".)

[Stg]

I'm loving this idea.

(short on time, I'll elaborate if I get off early tomorrow).

[Drjones013]

A few remarks on rerolling...

I've been a DM (D&D 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, GURPS 4.0, a bit of VtM) for nearly a decade now and character creation in those systems varies a lot. All of the players I've ever DM'd have always preferred random stats. Players get 6 random rolls that they can assign to stats (so  at least they can choose what they are good and bad at) and this gives them a feeling that their character is unique. Of course, those characters also have player classes, feats, and skills which further encourages that feeling of 'uniqueness.' Enchantments, because they're common to all characters, aren't really unique. Stats, if you create an array, allow the player to continuously make the same character over and over again; this is effectively true for random rolling as well.

My two cents: if you allow someone to continue to reroll then they'll find the close-to-perfect character they want. A high-mana player will continually look for high-mana options and then complain/kill characters until they get what they want. The reason for this is because enchantments, the things that make the character special, are shared. Permadeath in this game will only truly be effective if players are unable to duplicate a previous character.

[SilverStar]

I'll side with the idea of "upgrades per continent" bit, but with a twist.

Add in a core experience point function. A new character starts at base stats, with some points you can modify. But, give a reward to grinding. With the current way things go, if you -really- wanted to try, you could challenge a level 17 Overlord right at the start of the continent. But, you'll likely get slaughtered. So, give a pool of points which are awarded, similar to Upgrade stones, specifically to that particular character, for every boss type monster killed. The higher the various difficulties, the higher the reward multiplier.

With the experience points, you can buy new skills (damage boosts/resists, boosting of specific, individual spells), boost core stats (health, mana, global damage rates), directly purchase resources (spell scrolls, tiered spell orbs, spell components), or even for a very large amount of points, have continent/global buffs, or the ability to enhance your enchants.

But, these ONLY apply to the current character. Don't put any sort of maximum, just boost the requirements by a fixed rate (10-15% increase in points per level), so people who WANT to be overpowered and never worry, can work toward that. Those who want a challenge, don't have to spend their points if they don't want to. And if you die, you lose all the boosts, but your ghost doesn't.

Overall, only a very small number of these upgrades would be able to move between continents, since each one would become larger than the last one anyway. Maybe only allow global effects and enchant customization to carry over (and those would act as a sink, to throw your points into for relatively small returns, such as 0.5% boost to a single stat or calculation).

Doing this would keep the whole "NewGame+" idea of moving to each continent, while allowing you a slow but steady ability to build yourself up over time and become dedicated to one character, if you're good enough. If/When you mess up and die... well, it makes permadeath all that much more terrifying.

And it would give another avenue of choice for the player to progress. On top of the current models, it adds a new one where, yes, you do have the chance to build an ultimate warrior character, virtually invincible in all circumstances, able to take on the biggest challenges head-on without worrying - But you really have to WORK to get to that point. And even then, one mistake and you could still wind up dead.

[Misery]

I'll side with the idea of "upgrades per continent" bit, but with a twist.

Add in a core experience point function. A new character starts at base stats, with some points you can modify. But, give a reward to grinding. With the current way things go, if you -really- wanted to try, you could challenge a level 17 Overlord right at the start of the continent. But, you'll likely get slaughtered. So, give a pool of points which are awarded, similar to Upgrade stones, specifically to that particular character, for every boss type monster killed. The higher the various difficulties, the higher the reward multiplier.

With the experience points, you can buy new skills (damage boosts/resists, boosting of specific, individual spells), boost core stats (health, mana, global damage rates), directly purchase resources (spell scrolls, tiered spell orbs, spell components), or even for a very large amount of points, have continent/global buffs, or the ability to enhance your enchants.

But, these ONLY apply to the current character. Don't put any sort of maximum, just boost the requirements by a fixed rate (10-15% increase in points per level), so people who WANT to be overpowered and never worry, can work toward that. Those who want a challenge, don't have to spend their points if they don't want to. And if you die, you lose all the boosts, but your ghost doesn't.

Overall, only a very small number of these upgrades would be able to move between continents, since each one would become larger than the last one anyway. Maybe only allow global effects and enchant customization to carry over (and those would act as a sink, to throw your points into for relatively small returns, such as 0.5% boost to a single stat or calculation).

Doing this would keep the whole "NewGame+" idea of moving to each continent, while allowing you a slow but steady ability to build yourself up over time and become dedicated to one character, if you're good enough. If/When you mess up and die... well, it makes permadeath all that much more terrifying.

And it would give another avenue of choice for the player to progress. On top of the current models, it adds a new one where, yes, you do have the chance to build an ultimate warrior character, virtually invincible in all circumstances, able to take on the biggest challenges head-on without worrying - But you really have to WORK to get to that point. And even then, one mistake and you could still wind up dead.

Hmm, definitely against anything resembling experience points.   Obviously I dont speak for everyone, but I wanted to say it anyway.

I cant think of even ONE game where an EXP system does NOT lead to grinding among some players;  and this is the sort of game where you REALLY wanna have a strong character if you can, so it's gonna be more susceptible to becoming a grind-fest if certain features are implemented.   That'd be the point where I lose interest.   Stuff like that is why I usually dont do RPGs, and even on the exceedingly rare occaision that I find an RPG I actually like, I play through it VERY VERY VERY VERY SLOWLY because I cant focus on them well and I get bored easily. 

The only point where this game has had something like that so far was with the Upgrade Stones before their costs were changed, and all THOSE did was irritate alot of players because they didn't want to have to grind to max out characters each time (especially as death is FREQUENT in this game);   I pretty much just ignored the bloody things at that point, because they took too long to gather for me to care, so I was most of the time running around with a character that had like 3 or 4 upgrades because getting any more took too long.   Fortunately this problem was later removed.


I agree with the idea that there should be some more "differences" between characters and that death should MEAN a bit more, but definitely against the idea of EXP/levelling being how that would work.

[SilverStar]

Hmm, definitely against anything resembling experience points.   Obviously I dont speak for everyone, but I wanted to say it anyway.

I cant think of even ONE game where an EXP system does NOT lead to grinding among some players;  and this is the sort of game where you REALLY wanna have a strong character if you can, so it's gonna be more susceptible to becoming a grind-fest if certain features are implemented.   That'd be the point where I lose interest.   Stuff like that is why I usually dont do RPGs, and even on the exceedingly rare occaision that I find an RPG I actually like, I play through it VERY VERY VERY VERY SLOWLY because I cant focus on them well and I get bored easily. 

The only point where this game has had something like that so far was with the Upgrade Stones before their costs were changed, and all THOSE did was irritate alot of players because they didn't want to have to grind to max out characters each time (especially as death is FREQUENT in this game);   I pretty much just ignored the bloody things at that point, because they took too long to gather for me to care, so I was most of the time running around with a character that had like 3 or 4 upgrades because getting any more took too long.   Fortunately this problem was later removed.


I agree with the idea that there should be some more "differences" between characters and that death should MEAN a bit more, but definitely against the idea of EXP/levelling being how that would work.

And because of that, they don't have to do anything about changing the balance for those who don't want to do the grind. It's another aspect. If you, as an individual, are unable to avoid doing the grind for the sake of doing the grind, even when the majority of the basic leveling up is something you'd accomplish just by grinding to get the materials needed for unlocking all your spells to level 5, and you would only need to grind beyond that if you wanted to get special bonuses (there could even be a list of bonuses that can only be unlocked on a one-per-continent basis, to ensure you continue to progress through the continents instead of staying behind to grind endlessly, and unlock all the power you possibly can).

Right now, there's already something which would function similarly, in the form of Consciousness Shards. They're money, but they're also "experience points", which you can spend to unlock higher powered enchantments (as was pointed out in another thread, going on continent 1, getting max HP on your character and then running out to strength 10 storm will get you hundreds of thousands of shards in a very short time, which you can then use to power-level your enchantment unlocks, as an example). But, by making it something you only get from boss monsters, it means you would have to actively seek bosses out, much as you would seek out puzzle rooms and the like, just to progress to other frontiers, and not be left struggling, if other, existing methods prove to become a hurdle for you.

[Misery]

Hmm, definitely against anything resembling experience points.   Obviously I dont speak for everyone, but I wanted to say it anyway.

I cant think of even ONE game where an EXP system does NOT lead to grinding among some players;  and this is the sort of game where you REALLY wanna have a strong character if you can, so it's gonna be more susceptible to becoming a grind-fest if certain features are implemented.   That'd be the point where I lose interest.   Stuff like that is why I usually dont do RPGs, and even on the exceedingly rare occaision that I find an RPG I actually like, I play through it VERY VERY VERY VERY SLOWLY because I cant focus on them well and I get bored easily. 

The only point where this game has had something like that so far was with the Upgrade Stones before their costs were changed, and all THOSE did was irritate alot of players because they didn't want to have to grind to max out characters each time (especially as death is FREQUENT in this game);   I pretty much just ignored the bloody things at that point, because they took too long to gather for me to care, so I was most of the time running around with a character that had like 3 or 4 upgrades because getting any more took too long.   Fortunately this problem was later removed.


I agree with the idea that there should be some more "differences" between characters and that death should MEAN a bit more, but definitely against the idea of EXP/levelling being how that would work.

And because of that, they don't have to do anything about changing the balance for those who don't want to do the grind. It's another aspect. If you, as an individual, are unable to avoid doing the grind for the sake of doing the grind, even when the majority of the basic leveling up is something you'd accomplish just by grinding to get the materials needed for unlocking all your spells to level 5, and you would only need to grind beyond that if you wanted to get special bonuses (there could even be a list of bonuses that can only be unlocked on a one-per-continent basis, to ensure you continue to progress through the continents instead of staying behind to grind endlessly, and unlock all the power you possibly can).

Right now, there's already something which would function similarly, in the form of Consciousness Shards. They're money, but they're also "experience points", which you can spend to unlock higher powered enchantments (as was pointed out in another thread, going on continent 1, getting max HP on your character and then running out to strength 10 storm will get you hundreds of thousands of shards in a very short time, which you can then use to power-level your enchantment unlocks, as an example). But, by making it something you only get from boss monsters, it means you would have to actively seek bosses out, much as you would seek out puzzle rooms and the like, just to progress to other frontiers, and not be left struggling, if other, existing methods prove to become a hurdle for you.

The thing with the 10-strength storm is an exploit, as I understand it, not really an intended thing;  the devs can correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt that going 10 tiles into the storm and SURVIVING, and not only that, but PROFITING (and in a VERY short time no less), isnt really how it's supposed to work (at least I sure hope it isnt, because it's bloody stupid).   The game centers around those Wind Shelters for a reason.    If this DOESNT get patched out at some point here, I'm gonna be really, really surprised.

Not to mention..... there's already about a persquillion options for advancement, but even WITH that, when the Upgrade Stones were in "high cost" mode, players STILL grinded the hell outta them.  They coulda run around instead grabbing enchants or items to make powerful spells;  they grinded anyway, and got annoyed enough that it became the most complained about thing for a time.  Because their characters werent "strong" without it.  It was TOTALLY optional;  most saw it as a "have to do it" thing regardless.

And really, this is also what the difficulty settings are for.  If too many things become a "hurdle" and the player is struggling..... just tone the difficulty down a bit, maybe they're playing on a level that's a bit much for their current skill level.



I dunno.   If something like this were added, I'd hope to see it as something optional at world creation so I can turn it off.   Exactly the sort of thing that really would get me to just go pick a different game.

REALLY dont like EXP systems or anything similar in..... most any games.   One reason I stick to this game so much is it's NOT just about bloody numbers, and beating continents on high difficulties without dying 2000 times takes actual SKILL, as opposed to JUST levelling.   Bosses dont die simply because you have numbers (the 10-storm thing not counting for now, since it seriously does look like an exploit), and that, to me, is a good thing.    Oh there ARE numbers, sure, but they ALL have limits, and the game so far manages to keep enemy/boss power somewhat consistent with the player's level of progress, so it never becomes easy at any point on a high difficulty, but the player still has the option of simply LOWERING that if it's too much.

And yes, there's the idea of "well you can just ignore the system to keep the challenge in place", but I've seen games have THAT issue before, and it always seems..... broken.   If I have to actually IGNORE an entire game mechanic just to make a game challenging, it's pretty much "fake" challenge, if that makes any sense.


Not really an issue I'll debate much on, since I've already made the entireity of my point, but..... all up to the devs either way.

I also lost track of whatever else it was I was going to say.

[timesend]

I dont believe experience points would help in any way. The reasons for this is two fold, firstly it would make the problem of upgrade stones even worse, at the moment one of the major problems is not having upgrade stones makes you too weak to actually fight at your desired level and area so you have to collect these at the start of continets. Thus forcing you to collect them before doing what you wish, therefore you are forced to grind which makes the game dull.  Experience would just double this problem, players would no longer be able to play their desired builds until they grinded. I.e. certain amount of mana or hp or attack power.

Secondly you are encouraged to take risks in this game and sometimes you will die. With a system of experience that punishes death as much as you suggested and which loses all of your hours played, the game would be incredibly harsh, especially to new players. Imagine a player losing all their xp from blowing up a magma rhino at melee for the first time. Even the upgrade stones are far better then experience system.

On your point of how you want to be really strong and have an easy ride, to be honest this really can be achieved by turning down the difficulty level, the higher levels shouldnt be their just to make players who play for ever to fight on them, they are their for the truly skilled players and the suicidal ones. Having the desire to be able to one shot on the highest difficulty isnt really its purpose, at least in my opinion, the same result as grinding for hours for xp could be achieved by turning difficulty down. Only differences is monsters have lost hp/ damage and you havent gained. Their is no difference in this and gaining power. Even though it seems you are giving the player the choice to grind, in fact they have to grind. Sometimes the apperance of choice doesnt mean you are free. The Locked room by John Locke, is a great example of this. 

[Misery]

I dont believe experience points would help in any way. The reasons for this is two fold, firstly it would make the problem of upgrade stones even worse, at the moment one of the major problems is not having upgrade stones makes you too weak to actually fight at your desired level and area so you have to collect these at the start of continets. Thus forcing you to collect them before doing what you wish, therefore you are forced to grind which makes the game dull.  Experience would just double this problem, players would no longer be able to play their desired builds until they grinded. I.e. certain amount of mana or hp or attack power.

Secondly you are encouraged to take risks in this game and sometimes you will die. With a system of experience that punishes death as much as you suggested and which loses all of your hours played, the game would be incredibly harsh, especially to new players. Imagine a player losing all their xp from blowing up a magma rhino at melee for the first time. Even the upgrade stones are far better then experience system.

On your point of how you want to be really strong and have an easy ride, to be honest this really can be achieved by turning down the difficulty level, the higher levels shouldnt be their just to make players who play for ever to fight on them, they are their for the truly skilled players and the suicidal ones. Having the desire to be able to one shot on the highest difficulty isnt really its purpose, at least in my opinion, the same result as grinding for hours for xp could be achieved by turning difficulty down. Only differences is monsters have lost hp/ damage and you havent gained. Their is no difference in this and gaining power. Even though it seems you are giving the player the choice to grind, in fact they have to grind. Sometimes the apperance of choice doesnt mean you are free. The Locked room by John Locke, is a great example of this.

Lol, alot better explained than I was able to.  I kinda got lost in my own wording so I'm not sure my own post actually made sense.....

But you've said pretty much what I was getting at.   Agreed totally.


Also, I seem to remember that one thing the devs wanted to go for was for players to keep numerous "upgraded" characters around their settlement, with diverse stats, that they would switch between (with the glyph transfer scrolls) as the situation demanded;  it adds another layer of strategy to the game.  A high HP character with low attack might be great for a wind shelter mission, particularly on higher difficulties, but might be really bad at, say, dealing with a Boss Gang mission, particularly depending on the health levels of each boss, but switching to a low-HP high-attack character who can focus on a boss and knock it out fast might be the solution to that mission.   Stuff like that.   The game does that at least somewhat currently, and I think it's a good thing.  But having the whole experience system, particularly on a per-character basis, would make it take FOREVER to set up numerous diverse characters like that.  And this diversity seems more encouraged as the difficulty level rises.


"More diversity" is still the main thing I'd like to see come out of a system change like the one this topic is about.

[SilverStar]

Alright, how about keeping the experience, but give it the ability to "upgrade" the Ilari as well, so that you can get small boosts (cumulative over time) to new characters in case of death, but the current character gets a larger boost?

Again, I'm talking only a very small boost per XP-based upgrade - no more than 2% of current stat per level, and you'd only get the points from bosses and missions.

If you have to kill 10 or so bosses per upgrade (depending on the settings of your difficulty options and the difficulty tier of the continent), it simply gives you the option to use that when you find the game is getting too difficult. And, yes, you could disable it at worldgen if you don't want to be tempted to find a manner in which you could level yourself to be as dangerous to the Overlord as the Overlord would be to you at initial generation.

I really don't understand why people are actually opposed to the idea of "enable the player to empower themselves." Is it a lack of self-control? A desire to NOT want to find a point of encouragement to keep playing the game? Eventually, you WILL grow bored of being so overwhelmingly powerful where you are, and actually seek out new challenge, whether it's in generating a new character or simply moving on to the next continent.

It isn't even about WANTING to have an easy ride (Or, at least, not about being given an easy-mode stick), it's about WANTING to feel that exploration and challenges can continue to make the character stronger. Simply turning down the difficulty doesn't make the character stronger, it makes the world weaker. Right now, as you continue to kill things, it unlocks new, more powerful, more dangerous enemies. But, it doesn't make the characters any stronger. The sole purpose of even bothering with taking out the lieutenants and overlord, is to progress. Yet, that progression is lost with every new continent you move on to. And that progression doesn't make you stronger, it makes the world stronger.

As it stands right now, if you kill a lieutenant and push the continental tier up, you are effectively weakening yourself. Even once you get the correct spells for that tier, you will only do, at best, about the same amount of damage in relation, yet you will take more damage, you unlock more danger, you make the world more challenging. So, using your very viewpoint, why should the player EVER bother trying to progress in the game, if it only serves to punish them with no form of reward?

You do so, for challenge. And challenge should always have its own reward. Otherwise it's challenge for the sake of challenge, which is just trying to create an unneeded meat gate. Increasing the difficulty, increasing the tiers, should come with a form of reward that you can't get at lower difficulty. You should be given a way to not just overcome the challenge, but to be able to override the challenge with persistence. Not everyone can progress the same way, and it would also mean that even between characters, the entire game feels different.

Then again, maybe I'm simply not the kind of gamer that should ever be able to find enjoyment in the game. I only have 42 hours into it so far, and I'm still just on the first continent, because I'm exploring. I wander around, I look for what there is to be found, I just set out for an hour or two at a time without checking back in at base. By saying that having a way of persistent character advancement (experience points) which can be used to make my character stronger, you are effectively saying that my method of playing the game is fundamentally -wrong-. That I shouldn't want to explore and see what there is to be seen. I have 8000 upgrade stones that will never be used, but I do wish I could upgrade my HP and damage more, because letting the world get stronger just makes things take longer for me to play the game in a way I want to play it. But simply completely removing the upgrade stones and giving me NO way to promote, enhance and power up my character after generation beyond excessively tiresome attempts to find better enchantments, doesn't make it any more desirable to play.

If I feel I am making progress, I keep working at it. Once the feeling of progression is gone, I look for a way to progress again. If there's no more room for progression beyond just making the game harder, I'm done playing. Especially with a game that has no end. If progression becomes difficult because it gets to be too grindy, even after I've done everything to minimize the grind, at least the option for progression is still there, but it means I can go find something else to do without being strictly punished for it. I can still "level" in the background, while playing the rest of the game. I can still look for things, and let the upgrades come to me as they do, once it's no longer something worth putting the conscious effort into. But if there simply IS no progression, nothing more than "You've done well, we shall now punish you for it" then why would I continue to play?

[MaxAstro]

I am definitely against bringing back an experience/level system, although I know my "increasing upgrades" idea is dangerously close to that.

I suggested tying it to lieutenants/overlords specifically so that it wasn't something you could grind without consequences.  Rather it's meant to be a way to feel your character getting more powerful as you progress.

As far as what happens when you move to a new continent, honestly my thought was that you'd just keep upgrading.  There's no upper cap on how hard the game can get; why should there be one on how strong you can get?  To keep it from getting too out of hand I'd probably slightly reduce the number of upgrades per continent: say you get one upgrade per two lieutenants killed, and one upgrade per overlord killed.  That fits nicely with 4 lieutenants/one overlord, adding up to 3 upgrades per continent.

[zebramatt]

Well, I've no idea how I feel about any of this any more!

 

[Martyn van Buren]

Actually, when the game first went into beta it had EXP and infinite levels; tiers and continents got added in to replace them. I think that's a pretty unlikely change; it created ridiculous grinding problems as you had to keep upgrading your spells so often that there wasn't much time for anything else. You could have a look at some old posts in the brainstorming forum if you want to see their thinking about it.

[LayZboy]

I cant think of even ONE game where an EXP system does NOT lead to grinding among some players;  and this is the sort of game where you REALLY wanna have a strong character if you can, so it's gonna be more susceptible to becoming a grind-fest if certain features are implemented.

I don't see how farming for Enchants and Shards is less grindy than killing monsters for EXP.

[Bluddy]

I just mantis'ed a suggestion: we keep thinking of character bonuses from living long and doing stuff as being XP-like ie. strength-related. What if the bonuses were more like an action game where you have multipliers until you lose them by dying? It would relate to the amount of consciousness shards you got, the quality of enchants, and perhaps the quality at which NPCs carry out guardian scroll duties (big storm shelter vs small storm shelter, longer continent abilities etc).