Out with upgrades, in with initial custom characters?

[Martyn van Buren]

I am against a shard cost; a virtue of the current system is that the death penalty only bites if you've made investments in a character. There are just some times --- learning to do a new mission type, for instance --- where you are predictably going to lose a lot of characters in a row, and it would suck if this kind of experimentation were heavily penalized.

That's a good point. At the same time, there should be a difference between losing a character you've "invested" in and losing an experimental drone IMO. Not sure what the best way to handle that is, exactly.

That's an idea: how about an actual experimental drone? As in an unintelligent robot species created by the skelebots that has some serious nerfs (poor stats, no ability to upgrade, something like that) but no cost on death?

Hmm, that's definitely a worthwhile solution. It kind of goes back to "how do glyph transfers work under this system" but combined with the "shard percent loss" for "real" characters I think it would answer my concerns.

Maybe a new trap type could let you capture skelebot dwarfs for this purpose!

[Vinraith]

Maybe a new trap type could let you capture skelebot dwarfs for this purpose!

That would be awesome.

[Bluddy]

On second (or perhaps third) thought, I'm not entirely convinced Upgrade Stones need to go away.

It seems to me that there are two key problems with the current implementation:

• They're grindy to collect; and
• They're trivial to spend.

The real problem is this: death is frequent, and to prevent death you need more of these things.  Or you DON'T need more of these things in order to avoid death, in which case they are just overpoweringly unbalanced in your favor and death becomes super infrequent when you aren't at 10/10 upgrades.

Put another way: players will feel compelled to max these upgrades out, whether it is easy or hard.  If it is easy but grindy then it is boring and they complain; but at least the game isn't broken with balance.  If it is hard, then either the penalty for death is enormous or else players who get 10/10 upgrades now have a super-character that they will save-scum to keep.

My goal: forget all that stuff.  Make it zero-cost for them to have these customizations.  The point is the customization itself, not the acquisition.  For the acquisition, see enchants and spells and spell scrolls and all that other stuff that persists past death.

x4000, I think the problem may be that upgrade stones give too much stuff, to the point that you have to have upgrades to be competitive. Maybe that's the problem. If upgrades were relatively minor and rare, they'd be something nice to have that you could collect over time, but not essential. So if you have 200 health, an upgrade could give you an extra 15 health, and it would go down from there. So the main stats would be the race's stats, and then as you accomplish things with that character, you get a few upgrades. They don't change the game for you, but they make it a little bit easier. And if you lose that character, you feel a loss, if only because you achieved getting those upgrades. The 'customization' part then is not these upgrades, but choosing a race with the properties you need for the particular goal you had in mind. It makes choosing specific races also much more important.

[Martyn van Buren]

Maybe a new trap type could let you capture skelebot dwarfs for this purpose!

That would be awesome.

If it ever is possible to play as a captive skelebot dwarf, wild ones would have to stand around so you can go and complain to them about the oppressive rule of [GLYPHBEARER]

[keith.lamothe]

x4000, I think the problem may be that upgrade stones give too much stuff, to the point that you have to have upgrades to be competitive. Maybe that's the problem.

It's really much easier to balance the game if the assumption is that everyone has max upgrades when serious about succeeding at something.  So yea, you have to have them

[nanostrike]

1.what do folks think about then removing the ability to rename characters and NPCs?  Basically, no nicknames.  An NPC has a name that you can't change, and once your character is "born" they are stuck with whatever you called them until they die.  My thought is that if you have more flexibility in the first place, the need for the renaming stuff goes away.

2. I'm now leaning a bit more against the "lots of customization" thing.  It's true, this would just encourage players to specialize less, and to try and recreate the same character repeatedly.  Which, while attachment to ones' character is good, the former is actually detrimental to gameplay so that's not so hot.

4. Penalty for death is something that can't really be nailed down until how the whole character-creation stuff works settles down.  It's like building a house, you have to have the foundation before the roof.  Permadeath consequences are of lesser importance to me than the other stuff here, so those get decided on last.  Same thing with boss drops.  As we start including more and more spellscrolls, it may be that bosses simply drop spellscrolls.

5. Customizing NPCs that you find is definitely flat-out-no.  That really makes it feel completely wrong in my opinion: this is somebody you met, not somebody you designed.

6. That said, having a stable of characters in your settlement that are all useful and that you can switch between sounds really good to me.  My thought is that there would be some sort of "retirement" scroll that you could get.  Using that in a settlement would abandon your character but leave them alive and in the settlement, with a profession of "Retired Glyphbearer."  So you couldn't use this to game the system and get NPCs of other professions.  But you could use it to retire one character and create/choose another one, then later swap between the two of them.

7. Clearly there's a desire for more customization than we now have, and also the fact that you have to collect upgrade stones at all is an annoying grind at first and then pointless.  So that needs to be solved either way.  But there also seems to be a strong desire for some randomization and for the game to make you have to play outside your comfort zone, which I also am frankly a little relieved to see.

8. Perhaps, therefore, the past idea of just having a "re-roll characters" button that you can click is a better thing.  And then it gives you something like 3 choices always, completely at random.  And you get to choose a name for them, and allocate some extra stat points to them rather than having the upgrade stone business (so, still a new character selection screen, but not build-from-scratch).

9. It strikes me that if people can't play as their favorite time period, there's going to be some problems because they may have their enchants and spell unlocks built around something that is then inaccessible.  IE, if they are geared to a high-mana strategy and cannot get anyone with high enough mana that could be enormous trouble as they are then basically stuck.

1) HATE this.  I often rename NPCs to something catchy.  I think of it as a nickname instead of you "Changing their name".  It's not uncommon for me to name the Lumbermancer "Woody", the Aquamancer "Drip", and similar cheesy things that somehow make the settlement feel like you customized it.

2) This is kinda pointless.  If people don't get the character they want, they're going to just keep killing characters until they do.  That's why I liked the idea of your drop-down menu, where you get to choose your character type.  If I'm not able to pick the character I want, I can and will continue to give unfit characters lava baths until I get a decent one.

4) A simple thing to make death mean something is to give characters some sort up upgrades after they do something.  Not a significant amount, but maybe 3-5 upgrades.  If the character dies, the next one will have to earn the upgrades.  The upgrades would be called "Rank" or "Experience Level" and would be given titles, such as "Novice", "Journeyman", "Adept", "Veteran", and "Master".  Each rank would give a free upgrade level and you could increase your rank by doing things like completing a mission, getting a certain amount of resources, killing a lieutenant, crafting a spell, ect.

This would mean that even though you can "Re-create" your character of the same type, it really benefits you to keep yourself alive.

5) See #1.

6) This would be a decent way to handle multiple characters that you swap between.  Coupled with the upgrades idea above, it'd also give good incentive to let each one complete some missions to get upgraded...and to keep them alive!  Still no excuse to take away the ability to rename NPCs.

A good way to execute this would be to have "Seek Glyphbearer" scrolls appear as mission rewards.  To use these, you would have to go to the green Illari Stone in the settlement (This makes sure you're IN the settlement when you use it!).  Using it would make your character become an NPC with the profession of "Glyphbearer Chosen" or something similar, and would start the creation of a new character like it would if you had died.  This way, the scroll is basically the Illari calling a glyphbearer from somewhere to come to the settlement.

7) To balance out the rewards of randomness vs the benefits of customization, perhaps let a "Randomized" character start out upgraded by a rank or two (See above), as if they'd completed some missions already.  This could be explained as the glyph finding an experienced survivor instead of an inexperienced one.

This would mean that you can get back up to "Full power" faster by randomizing your character.  For a random character, there would be a Random button (With some text that explains the pros and cons of randomization).  Clicking this (Possibly requiring confirmation to be sure) would immediately pop up a list of several potential characters.  You MUST take one of them, though you can still apply upgrades as you wish.  Defaulting these random characters to random names (Let the players rename them later if they really want to) would make the randomness be more pronounced.

This would still result in new characters taking lava baths until the one you want shows up.

9) This is why that option to select your character is a good idea.  If you don't get the character type with at least the general stats you want/need to play the way you've built up to, characters are going to end up in lava baths.


All-in-all, I think Upgrade Stones should go away as they currently are.  There needs to be some customization at character creation, but something beyond that in the long-term, to further advance a character you're sticking with for a long time, is still needed.  Gaining Ranks (That each grant an additional upgrade) from doing various things would be a solution to this...but you have to make sure it doesn't become grindy.

[Bluddy]

Also, I fully support the idea of dexterity, but as a more granularly implemented mechanic. Such that:

Points in dexterity influence how high double and triple jumps are, where 0 points is barely any lift at all (especially for the third jump) and 4 gives more than the current lift. The third jump will always provide less lift than the second, and the second providing less lift than the first. Points in dexterity will give disproportionate benefits to the height of the third jump at levels 3 and 4 (or 8-10 if you decide to go with a 10pt scale).


edited for clarity

I think DEX is needed to prevent over-using double/triple jumps. My problem with Jerebaldo1's suggestion is that it doesn't make other jumps better than or even equivalent to double/triple jumps for any character. A low double/triple jump is still better than a small boost to a single jump. That's why I think disabling them with DEX levels is the only way. But I think this needs to be tested on its own, separately from the feedback on character creation.

How about taking lift literally (a force applied downwards, thus pushing you up)? Like at low DEX stats, the amount of lift given on a double jump is not assured to be enough to make you move upwards when falling at high speeds. Even more so for triple jump (because it would give less lift than double jumps). That way, at low DEXs, you cannot be assured that you can always avoid falling damage, only reduce it (this would imply that the speed you land on the ground would need to be part of the falling damage calculation). Also, it would naturally reduce total jump height for low DEX characters. At mid DEX, you might always get enough lift to ensure that double jump can always get your Y velocity to >= 0 (as it would generate enough lift to overcome or at least cancel out the max falling speed), but not necessarily your 3rd jump. Only at very high DEX would all of your jumps be assured to at least stop your falling. (Some level of maximum speed up due to jumping will be needed to prevent, say, max DEX characters getting a ludicrously high total jump height when jumping from neutral or moving upwards)

This could also serve as a way to make ride the lightning desirable, it would always be assured to stop your falling, as it would always generate at least enough lift to pop you up some.

I think it's a clever idea, but it's probably too complex for most people to deal with in real time. "It was supposed to double jump but it didn't work!" Also, even a weakened double jump without falling damage prevention is probably still better than one bigger jump. I think it makes the most sense to just disable the enchant with a text saying requirements aren't met -- kinda like you'd have in an ARPG when you try to equip high level weapons.

[keith.lamothe]

8. Perhaps, therefore, the past idea of just having a "re-roll characters" button that you can click is a better thing.  And then it gives you something like 3 choices always, completely at random.  And you get to choose a name for them, and allocate some extra stat points to them rather than having the upgrade stone business (so, still a new character selection screen, but not build-from-scratch).

8 ) This would still result in new characters taking lava baths until the one you want shows up.

I'm not sure you're talking about the same thing: the "reroll" button he's talking about just generates a new set of characters, which is all lava-bathing has ever done.  Just shortens the loop.

[nanostrike]

8. Perhaps, therefore, the past idea of just having a "re-roll characters" button that you can click is a better thing.  And then it gives you something like 3 choices always, completely at random.  And you get to choose a name for them, and allocate some extra stat points to them rather than having the upgrade stone business (so, still a new character selection screen, but not build-from-scratch).

8 ) This would still result in new characters taking lava baths until the one you want shows up.

I'm not sure you're talking about the same thing: the "reroll" button he's talking about just generates a new set of characters, which is all lava-bathing has ever done.  Just shortens the loop.

But if you can "Randomize until I get the right one", it's not really random anyway, is it?

[TechSY730]

8. Perhaps, therefore, the past idea of just having a "re-roll characters" button that you can click is a better thing.  And then it gives you something like 3 choices always, completely at random.  And you get to choose a name for them, and allocate some extra stat points to them rather than having the upgrade stone business (so, still a new character selection screen, but not build-from-scratch).

8 ) This would still result in new characters taking lava baths until the one you want shows up.

I'm not sure you're talking about the same thing: the "reroll" button he's talking about just generates a new set of characters, which is all lava-bathing has ever done.  Just shortens the loop.

You know, even with the reroll button, some people will still make their characters take a dive in lava because it is hilarious.

[Martyn van Buren]

But if you can "Randomize until I get the right one", it's not really random anyway, is it?

I favor it.  I mean, as you note, you can do that now, but I like to take one of the options I'm offered and see how far I can get with it.  So a reroll button lets me keep doing that but allows you to find your ideal character in a relatively efficient way, right?

[topper]

2. I'm now leaning a bit more against the "lots of customization" thing.  It's true, this would just encourage players to specialize less, and to try and recreate the same character repeatedly.  Which, while attachment to ones' character is good, the former is actually detrimental to gameplay so that's not so hot.

I think the easiest way to have the customization we want is for it to "remember" the last few characters you created and allow you to re-select them. This has the same effect as keeping a few different types of characters that you switch between in the settlement. To keep the customization from being too confusing, have a drop-down for race and also one for "desired playing style" which would preset the upgrade sliders to something which you could tweak to your liking.

3. I really prefer Jerebaldo1's suggestion on dexterity and how that would work.  Regardless of how the rest of this goes, I think that makes a lot of sense.

I really do not like this idea, since it nerfs single jumps for characters with less dexterity. Now my character with no dexterity has to press space three times to achieve what I could do with one press before? Maybe changes in jump height could be more intertwined with the different races, and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd jumps could scale differently with increasing dexterity? For one race it could be that 1st, 2nd, 3rd jump all scale the same with increasing dex, for others the 1st jump could always have a value of 1 and the 2nd and 3rd could increase proportionally with dex from 0 to 1. This gives a lot more possible combinations and some additional uniqueness to different races.

4. Penalty for death is something that can't really be nailed down until how the whole character-creation stuff works settles down.  It's like building a house, you have to have the foundation before the roof.  Permadeath consequences are of lesser importance to me than the other stuff here, so those get decided on last.  Same thing with boss drops.  As we start including more and more spellscrolls, it may be that bosses simply drop spellscrolls.
.....
6. That said, having a stable of characters in your settlement that are all useful and that you can switch between sounds really good to me.....

If we can switch to a new characters design at any time with use of a scroll, then there is no need to keep a "stable" in our settlement. Simply use a glyph transfer scroll on yourself to trigger the character design. That way the rescued characters with professions never get interfered with and people can still switch between types they like.

Even though you say that the penalty for death cannot be nailed down until after the character creation, they are really intertwined; since the cost of dying will directly influence how willing people are to repeatedly die until they get the character they want... You might as well just let us have it in the first place, since nobody likes a stiff penalty just to enforce randomness. There can even be a random roll button for those who want to do that.

A way to get people more attached to the current iteration of their favorite race might be to record stats on the things they accomplish before death and also how they died and put them in a "Hall of Fame" in the settlement that displays the feats of the glyph bearers that have died and also the current ones (a purple Illari stone?). Things like shards/enchants collected, monsters/lietenants/overlords killed, missions completed, etc. This could later be expanded to potentially work for achievements or unlocks that are specific to completing a certain number of things without dying (progress towards these would continue on if you used a scroll to switch characters instead of doing it after dying).

[Zozma]

My goal: forget all that stuff.  Make it zero-cost for them to have these customizations.  The point is the customization itself, not the acquisition.  For the acquisition, see enchants and spells and spell scrolls and all that other stuff that persists past death.

I'm for this. If the game gives me a smack every time I die, I won't want to play. If it coerces me into a different way of playing, I stay interested. I'm somewhere between the Fable "There's system for death whatsoever" camp of death mechanic and the Nethack/hardcore "death should be something that invalidates hours of your time" camp.

My only real request with the upgrade system: Allow us to make changes when the screen's still up. I don't do the math in my head, and end up screwing myself over when I distribute points to get the value's I want, only to realize that I'm wasting points on a dump stat. Being able to make changes before finalizing would be a nice addition. Or can we already do that and I'm just being thick?

Points in dexterity influence how high double and triple jumps are, where 0 points is barely any lift at all (especially for the third jump) and 4 gives more than the current lift. The third jump will always provide less lift than the second, and the second providing less lift than the first. Points in dexterity will give disproportionate benefits to the height of the third jump at levels 3 and 4 (or 8-10 if you decide to go with a 10pt scale).

I'm for this, but also additional benefits, as well. I'd like the addition of a dexterity stat to expands horizon, rather than feeling like something that gimps what my character can already do. If I have a character with the suicidally low health of 200, I don't want to allocate precious points away from his attack and mana simply to give him the dodging and mobility that we've all learned to take for granted. Here are so ideas I have to expand dexterity:
- Points in dexterity lower detectability. Not as much as a good enchant, but enough to make it meaningful at high levels.
- Points in dexterity lower fall damage. If the devs don't want fall damage to be a value players interact with outside of the platforming setting, maybe make it lower fall velocity, instead?
- Points in dexterity affect maneuverability while in the air. i.e.: how fast you can move horizontally while you jump.

Also, I want to start making each time period's characters more unique than just their main-three stats and graphics alone.  That's already the case with the draconites and neutral skelebots that they handle differently, but I think that can be carried further.  Having one time period of characters always emit light, for instance.  Others with various elemental resistances built in.  And so on.  That sort of thing wouldn't have been the best idea back when you couldn't choose your characters for yourself in such depth (and there was nowhere to show this information on the character select screen), but it seems to be a natural evolution of where we're heading these days.

This is actually what I'm really excited about. I'd love to see an expansion of this. Features like medieval characters getting additional damage reduction, modern characters getting more mission rewards (to reflect the excess of their time period), bonuses to characters when they're in their native biome, or even the addition of race-specific spells would be very welcome.

[Jerebaldo1]

I really do not like this idea, since it nerfs single jumps for characters with less dexterity. Now my character with no dexterity has to press space three times to achieve what I could do with one press before? Maybe changes in jump height could be more intertwined with the different races, and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd jumps could scale differently with increasing dexterity? For one race it could be that 1st, 2nd, 3rd jump all scale the same with increasing dex, for others the 1st jump could always have a value of 1 and the 2nd and 3rd could increase proportionally with dex from 0 to 1. This gives a lot more possible combinations and some additional uniqueness to different races.

Oh no, the first single jumps would remain unaffected you see, because I agree that'd be irritating

I'm for this, but also additional benefits, as well. I'd like the addition of a dexterity stat to expands horizon, rather than feeling like something that gimps what my character can already do. If I have a character with the suicidally low health of 200, I don't want to allocate precious points away from his attack and mana simply to give him the dodging and mobility that we've all learned to take for granted. Here are so ideas I have to expand dexterity:
- Points in dexterity lower detectability. Not as much as a good enchant, but enough to make it meaningful at high levels.
- Points in dexterity lower fall damage. If the devs don't want fall damage to be a value players interact with outside of the platforming setting, maybe make it lower fall velocity, instead?
- Points in dexterity affect maneuverability while in the air. i.e.: how fast you can move horizontally while you jump.

Sure, the added benefits to dexterity sound fun, and you're right they'd have to be modest if all three become added. Dexterity is historically a broad stat...almost as much as "luck" usually is.

If you wish to keep double and triple jumps attainable at any dexterity level, then the other movement enchants are going to need varying levels of further buffs to make them competitive with triple jump. Powerslide would probably need an added movement buff in addition to the mana increase. Single jump enhancement would probably need modestly greater vertical height added....and if there's a run speed enchant it'll need an even greater speed boost plus a slight enhancement to jump height....just keeping things competitive while also maintaining your options. As long as there's satisfying tradeoffs I'm happy

[Coppermantis]

I support this idea as long as, as Tigersfan said, there's a random name button. I'm bad at coming up with original names for characters.