Out with upgrades, in with initial custom characters?

[x4000]

Okay, this is something that I originally had not wanted to do with the game, but it's coming to a point where this really probably needs to happen.  But before I embark on a large journey, I wanted to run this by the forum and see if this sends anyone running screaming or if there are any objections I might not have anticipated.  So, here's the bottom line:

1. Completely and utterly removing upgrade stones.  They no longer exist in this model.
2. Making it so that when you die or start a new game, you create a new character from scratch, allocating stat points like a lot of RPGs.

So this rolls together the concepts of the upgrade stones (customization) with the concepts of the base stats, minus any of the randomization.  You get what you want, name your character what you want, and choose the portrait you want for your character.

Details?  Sure:

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1. Each character type (sprite + portrait) has some "base stats" for health, attack, and mana that they get for free.  This is already true.  When we add a Dexterity stat, that will also be true here.

2. You can choose the exact character type that you want out of any that you have unlocked, simply from a dropdown of their portraits.

3. You then get to name the character, and also this gives you an easy place to change your profile name if you so desire (so you don't have to know cmd:rename if you don't want to).

4. You'll then get X number of upgrade points that you can sink into any of the stats you wish.  Little +/- buttons next to each stat let you allocate and deallocate the stat points as you see fit.  You can even then switch character types and see how those allocations play out.

5. When you are happy and all your allocation points are spent, you hit a Create Character button and you're now back to the game.

Oh, and some other stuff:

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What the heck is dexterity?  Well, it will be a point rating valued from 0 to 4. 
- In order to use any leg enchants you'll need dexterity 1.
- To use any jump-related leg enchants you'll need dexterity 2.
- Dexterity 3 needed for double-jump enchants.
- Dexterity 4 needed for triple-jump enchants.

Ride the lightning and lightning rocket would be unaffected by dexterity.  But the idea is that if you want to be triple-jumping all over the place, then you are giving up some health, mana, or attack power.

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Also, it bears noting that at the moment we have two separate stat systems for your character: their base stats and then your upgrade stats from upgrade stones.  The upgrade stone style of stats would just go away, and then the base stats would get massively altered.  On the one hand they would get really buffed so that you could still get the crazy extra health like you can right now through upgrade stones; but on the other hand they would also come with diminishing returns like the upgrade stones, which right now the base stats don't really have.

Suffice it to say, it's thoroughly putting both concepts in the blender and just having one concept come out on the other side that pulls from both.  Seems simpler to me, in the end -- and it lets you get right at what it is you want to do in the first place, which is customize your character.  All these requests for "re-rolling" characters become moot if you can just create your character from the start.  And some of Tom Chick's comments to me in the Quarter To Three podcast a bit ago were along the lines of character attachment being much improved simply from the ability to name your character; I think that will help, along with the ability to simply make the hero of your choosing in the first place.

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Related to the above: what do folks think about then removing the ability to rename characters and NPCs?  Basically, no nicknames.  An NPC has a name that you can't change, and once your character is "born" they are stuck with whatever you called them until they die.  My thought is that if you have more flexibility in the first place, the need for the renaming stuff goes away.

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On this new character creation screen, we'll start showing some other stats that right now you can't see on the character select screen.  Things like the time period of the character, their base stats, their movement speed and jump speed if it's different from the norm.

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Also, I want to start making each time period's characters more unique than just their main-three stats and graphics alone.  That's already the case with the draconites and neutral skelebots that they handle differently, but I think that can be carried further.  Having one time period of characters always emit light, for instance.  Others with various elemental resistances built in.  And so on.  That sort of thing wouldn't have been the best idea back when you couldn't choose your characters for yourself in such depth (and there was nowhere to show this information on the character select screen), but it seems to be a natural evolution of where we're heading these days.

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Any objections?  Something I haven't thought of?  This seems to wrap together the feedback from a really wide array of people quite nicely, but I don't know.

[tigersfan]

I like the idea, by and large. My only real comment right now is that, personally, I HATE naming characters, so, I'd love to see a "random name" button.

[x4000]

A random name button is definitely doable.

[Toll]

First, I agree with the random name. I don't like naming characters either

And at first glance, without mulling it over in my head... I dunno, I must say that dexterity doesn't seem very appealing to me. Probably because I'd always sink four points into it (which are points that could be better spent elsewhere). This means that everyone essentially becomes weaker by including it; those that don't put points in it won't be able to double/triplejump (depending on what the base dex is, but I'm assuming that depends on the character in question), while those that do put points in it have to sacrifice that extra health/damage/mana.

[x4000]

Regarding dexterity, that's really a separate conversation, but here's the impetus for that: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7863

The main thrust of this is about create-your-own versus choose-your-own.

[TechSY730]

And at first glance, without mulling it over in my head... I dunno, I must say that dexterity doesn't seem very appealing to me. Probably because I'd always sink four points into it (which are points that could be better spent elsewhere). This means that everyone essentially becomes weaker by including it; those that don't put points in it won't be able to double/triplejump (depending on what the base dex is, but I'm assuming that depends on the character in question), while those that do put points in it have to sacrifice that extra health/damage/mana.

Quickly summarizing what was in the post that inspired this stat. It is supposed to be a tradeoff of mobility vs. other stuff. And your observation that this is a nerf is correct. This IS a nerf to double and triple jump enchants. It is supposed to be one.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

What about permadeath though? Doesn't this change essentially mean that it no longer applies?

King

[Martyn van Buren]

I'm not too keen on any of this (besides dex), honestly; I like the way the system works now for both names and stats.  I do think this will hurt character attachment, but it seems like we don't have all that much of it at the minute and I could see other features coming in later that would more than make up for this change. I definitely think Tom Chick is wrong that more customization is the route to more character attachment ---- seriously, has anyone ever played an RPG and cared about their own character more than their NPC friends? This also seems to open the door to just playing a long string of cookie-cutter glyphbearers with the same name; savescumming with a different interface.

But I seem to be in a minority and I can live with these changes. Definitely +1 for random names --- or perhaps just using the current system for default names and making them editable?

I'd also like a tickbox for random stats; I think I might use that quite a lot. Perhaps it could offer a sort of vanilla extension of base stats plus a random factor? As in, it might allocate six-seven upgrades in a set way that keeps the strengths and weaknesses of the base character type intact and then puts the remainder in randomly, so you could choose a time of magic character and know you're going to get high mana but have some uncertainty about the exact stats.

Dex I think would be a fair stat. Double and triple jumps are powerful enough that it makes sense to me to force a tradeoff.

I'm very pro special abilities, but would favor them giving you things that are totally unavailable otherwise. The brief flight idea on Mantis is cool. Also perhaps a toggleable mana drain/health regeneration? It would be OP as a spell but it could be fair in the hands of some of the really low-mana types.

[x4000]

Martyn van Buren: whether or not you're in the minority here remains to be seen.

[Bluddy]

Some comments:

- 4 levels of DEX might be too little, but we'll have to see. I imagine every race starts with at least 1 DEX, so at most it's 3 upgrades to get triple jump. On average it'll be 1-2, which really isn't much.
- Other things could fall into the category of DEX -- stealth enchants for example, allowing the scale to grow.
- I'd like the ability to save my default point assignment for every race. Sometimes I'd like to build up my character, but other times I just want to get back into the game as fast as possible, so I want to be able to load up my default configuration for the race I chose (for that particular world) and just go with it (or move 1 point around somewhere).
- I think it'd be a nice touch to refuse to name the character after one that just died. So if I name my character Bluddy and it dies, and then I try to name the next one Bluddy again, the game will turn it into Bluddy Jr. It could go on for 'The Third'... 'The Fifth' and stop somewhere, at which point I can go back to the original name. Even if I go from Bluddy to Bob and then Bluddy again, the game will remember that Bluddy lived not too long ago and that this must be his offspring. It's a nice little touch that'll add the feeling that the character's a real person.

[Martyn van Buren]

Oh well, as long it's clear that my position is "I don't care for it but it's not the most important thing to me" rather than "OMG you guys YOU'RE KILLING THE GAME!!!!"

Also, I really do like that naming idea, Bluddy

[Bluddy]

Just to make my opinion clear, I do think character customization is a very good thing for the game to do. It'll really personalize the experience.

Now we just need something to put in stashes and a death penalty.

[zebramatt]

I'm for it, on the whole.

[Penumbra]

character attachment being much improved simply from the ability to name your character; I think that will help, along with the ability to simply make the hero of your choosing in the first place.

I agree that some people would enjoy being able to name their character and that helps with "attachment." I would be using the random button, however   

I have always felt that my getting to know the characters was where the attachment comes from with me. Learning their name and their abilities. Just choosing your character might just limit this, though. Now, I'm probably in the minority here, but the attachment grows with the possibility of loss. You get a really good roll and some awesome character builds uniqueness. Just dying and creating Bob XXXII with the same stats and name removes death completely.

Something that I know has been batted around a few times before, but I would like to know more about where these guys are coming from.

From a pure game-play optimization/power gamer perspective, this is the best option. Total control.

[timesend]

Firstly let me state my support for removal of upgrade stones, they cause a small annoyance upon the beginning of continets and then become completly pointless.

However with the removal of upgrade stones I was wondering what boss mobs would drop, would it change to large number of conscience shards, or guardian scrolls, what incentive would players be given to kill bosses (currently nearly none, avoid as many as possible).

Secondly was wondering if we could be allowed to customly create the characters we rescue as well, my reasoning for suggesting this is that it would mean the player is capable of having multiple classes without having to reroll, i.e. health high or damage high and you could also be able to choose their possesion, thus enabling players to choose what profession they want in their settlement. which is useful early on in continent development.

Now another problem with this idea is perma death, after you create your character and then lose them to some horrific bat storm, a large number of player will simply want the exact same character and reroll exaclty, thus perma death really doesnt exist anymore. For death to have real consequences something must be lost. It seems rather pointless to force a player to recreate if they are just going to recreate the exact same character.