Out with upgrades, in with initial custom characters?

[Varil]

On topic(ish?) : I like most of the changes I read, but I'm not too fond of the dexterity stat as listed. I like the platforming in AVWW more than I do the combat, so feeling like I'm being punished for my preference in the thing I like less is a bit annoying. I'd rather the other leg enchants be competitive, than that the "best" enchant be carefully regulated by character design.

Regarding permadeath, maybe the retired glyphbearer could have a hand in it? Give each character a fame rating, which doesn't directly do anything, but provides slight passive advantages when a famous character retires.

If doing a mission nets 1 fame, killing a Lieutenant nets(say) three times their tier in fame, and an Overland gives between 15 and 20 fame, then a late-game character could be expected to have anywhere between 50 and 200 fame(of course, higher values are possible, but if people are going to grind fame may as well let them). Fame could provide(very) small bonuses to, say, health or mana, equal to maybe 1/10th of a percent per point of fame.

So if a character with 100 fame is retired, other glyphbearers will have about 10% more health/mana/something. A relatively small bonus, but a nice reward for keeping a character alive for a long while.

So players can't just build up one super-careful character and then retire him once him fame is satisfactorily high, maybe the fame of any retired glyphbearers should drop whenever a glyphbearer dies. This drop could be equal to, say, 10+1/10th of the killed glyphbearer's fame. The base 10 is so players aren't encouraged to kill new glyphbearers before their fame gets too high to prevent risking the fame of their retired glyph bearer, the fame-based loss is to build in a sort of "soft cap" so players are less likely to build up fame forever(the more fame your characters have, the more the loss of any given one matters). Maybe no fame could be lost if the killed glyphbearer has a higher fame than the retired one, just to soften the blow of losing someone awesome .

[x4000]

8. Perhaps, therefore, the past idea of just having a "re-roll characters" button that you can click is a better thing.  And then it gives you something like 3 choices always, completely at random.  And you get to choose a name for them, and allocate some extra stat points to them rather than having the upgrade stone business (so, still a new character selection screen, but not build-from-scratch).

8 ) This would still result in new characters taking lava baths until the one you want shows up.

I'm not sure you're talking about the same thing: the "reroll" button he's talking about just generates a new set of characters, which is all lava-bathing has ever done.  Just shortens the loop.

This is also something that's incredibly common in most western RPGs from what I've seen.  The tricky thing is that it's a bit of a lottery: you roll a new character, but you can't go back to the prior character if you liked the prior one better.  So when you find one that is almost-perfect, there's a mental tussle there.  The difference is that we'd be offering 3 rather than 1 at a time, hopefully reducing the tussling.  We could even potentially make it 5; I think there is room on the smallest screens for that.

[NyQuil]

Personally, I'm addicted to the multi-jump enhances.  I had to start my world over a few betas back, because it was causing a world load error.  The error was fixed and I was able to go back to my original world a patch or two later.  Basically, the one thing I missed the most was my double jump.  Without the extra jump, personally I feel really immobile, and felt less compelled to carry on.    I'm fairly happy you didn't opt for the -100 or -200 mana nerf, but I'm uneasy about the dex option.

My 2 Cents.

[timtim]

I like the idea of naming the character with a first and last name, so if a character dies and you're prompted to make a new one you can only change the first name - as the last night sticks as if he is related and it's part of the same family.

Upgrades wise, sounds all good - it's all very simplistic at the moment, which I'm not sure is good or not, very torn on that.

[Misery]

Ok, I have a few thoughts on this idea, after reading the initial few posts....  I'm not gonna go over the whole topic, due to laziness and the fact that my usually-low patience level is even worse tonight, so forgive me if I mention things that others might already have thought of.

This is an issue I've had alot of thoughts about though; I've been complaining about the Upgrade Stones for awhile in general.

First of all, there's the way that the characters are randomized.

I know this isnt exactly a new idea.   It's been done in western RPGs for a very long time;  you get a character with randomized stats, and then usually you then take that character and add points to them, before you then use them.  Alot of people seem to think that this system works.....

.....which absolutely baffles me, because it DOESNT.   At all.   Not even close.

The proof of this?   Is the concept of "re-rolling".  That randomization doesnt matter; most players are going to sit there and just re-roll until they get EXACTLY what they want anyway.  And usually, in most games, these stats are important enough to warrant that.  Alot of RPGs that do this are VERY difficult, so, if you're trying to make a wizard, and you keep getting guys with low Intelligence stats, for instance, are you going to USE those guys?  Probably not, because not having the right stats can kill you pretty fast..... so the usual sentiment is "why bother using that guy?  I'll just re-roll until I get a GOOD one."    Heck, the system is SO broken that players will sit there and do this FOR AN HOUR, and they consider this to be NORMAL.    What..... the heck. 

If the players are going to re-roll the hell outta the game ANYWAY until they get what they want, WHY RANDOMIZE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?  All it does is make them spend silly amounts of time doing something that really is unusually stupid.   They'll get exactly the stats they want anyway, so wasting time literally IS the only concievable function of such a mechanic.  It does NOTHING else.

Even I've found myself doing that occaisionally in this game, during the sort of situation where I know I need a pretty specialized character for something..... but the game keeps creating ones that, based on their starting stats, will not work.  I'm sure I'm not the only one that's dumped a couple characters into lava pits just to save time.   And I haaaaaaaaate doing that.  Talk about ruining immersion!


On the other hand though:  Randomization of SOME sort makes some sense.   These people are survivors, and each one has different skills and experiences.  The Ilari dont just jam some pieces together and MAKE new survivors to get them perfect, no, they have to choose carefully from what they have, right?   And this same logic applies to most games that do this sort of thing.  Those guilds that give you all those quests in dungeon-crawler RPGs dont have some sort of wacky factory that just craps out a perfect adventurer/wizard/rogue/paladin/janitor with the push of a button.  No, they'd be getting people coming in offa the streets, and they have to consider the wide range of differences between these people.

Of course, while that idea sounds great on paper, again, in-game it usually just leads to re-rolling.

So on one hand..... I like the idea of NOT having to re-roll characters due to the RNG.   But at the same time randomization is a big part of a game like this, and it does MAKE SENSE.

.....so how in the heck could we keep BOTH ideas, and have it actually work?    Having players be able to choose stuff for the loadout they want.... so that they dont have to die immediately in a certain task just because the RNG went "NOPE!", and so they dont have to re-roll because of it, but also having some of the randomization that permeates the entire game?

.....I havent the foggiest clue.  I'm not one of the developers.  I'm just throwing concepts/ideas/opinions out there and hoping one of them accomplishes something.   And also hoping one of them makes some semblance of sense.



As for the upgrade stones themselves..... the idea of just using their effects at character creation makes sense..... because that's how it works right now ANYWAY.   I have SO MANY of these.  When I die and get a new character, I pick one, they spawn, and I just right-click the stones and select upgrades.  They may as well not exist.

At the same time though, I appreciate the IDEA behind them; they represent character growth, as that individual character goes out and experiences the adventures and challenges of the world.   So that you HAVE character growth at all, and arent JUST growing the continent/civs powers, while the characters remain absolutely static.    At least, that's how I imagine this was SUPPOSED to work, but for various wacky reasons it so far really hasnt.

I'd be all for the idea of some alternate form of character specific growth, if some good way to do it can be found that doesnt lead to grinding, or trivialization of any game element.   Again, I have no freaking clue what such a method might be.



And finally, I definitely agree with the idea of adding a couple more stats.   I really like the idea of character specialization in this game;  even with JUST the three stats that there are now, it's possible to do it, and it helps.   But adding say, two more stats (if you can come up with two important/useful/balanced ones to add) would increase this even further, and add more potential combinations and options.   I've always thought that having JUST three stats per character seemed a little low. 




Anyway, there's my lengthy, rambling thoughts on this.   I hope they made sense.   I'm not so sure they did, lol.

[Martyn van Buren]

most players are going to sit there and just re-roll until they get EXACTLY what they want anyway.

I really don't think that's true.  Some players are really obsessive about stats optimization and want the very best character they can make the game give them, but I think an equal number (and I belong to this later category) want a game to feel like an adventure and tend to go along with what it gives you.  I think the purpose of this system in an RPG is that it lets the optimization crowd get what they want (with an increasing time-cost depending on how particular they are) but doesn't force more touchy-feely players to confront the fact that they're basically playing an Excel spreadsheet with better graphics.  And likewise in this sort of game I enjoy the sense that I'm getting unique and random people, even if I'm ignoring that there's a button that could replace them with another set of unique and random people more suited to my tastes.

[Coppermantis]

Maybe, in addition to random name generation option, add a button to give randomized stats if you're the kind who likes to try your luck and live with what you get?

[Misery]

most players are going to sit there and just re-roll until they get EXACTLY what they want anyway.

I really don't think that's true.  Some players are really obsessive about stats optimization and want the very best character they can make the game give them, but I think an equal number (and I belong to this later category) want a game to feel like an adventure and tend to go along with what it gives you.  I think the purpose of this system in an RPG is that it lets the optimization crowd get what they want (with an increasing time-cost depending on how particular they are) but doesn't force more touchy-feely players to confront the fact that they're basically playing an Excel spreadsheet with better graphics.  And likewise in this sort of game I enjoy the sense that I'm getting unique and random people, even if I'm ignoring that there's a button that could replace them with another set of unique and random people more suited to my tastes.

Oh dont get me wrong, I usually like the idea too.  I haaaaaaaaate re-rolling.   It's not as bad as grinding.... but it's very, very close, and often done for very similar reasons.

But often in one of those games.... you ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT WIN if you dont do it.   It of course depends on the game, but as a fan of hyper-difficult games in general, I've run into plenty where that's absolutely true.   In those games, it's not a matter of players being picky about the stats or obsessive in some way;  it's a case of it being difficult enough to the point where if such and such stat isnt at least at such and such number, you *will* lose.   In that situation, there's literally no point in going forward with the character who, by initial stats, is absolutely prevented from reaching said number.

It's kinda like grinding in RPGs.   In many good RPGs you dont HAVE to do this..... but even with some of the best of them, they'll often have SOME sort of content in them where if you do not grind.... and more specifically, do not grind ENOUGH.... you literally have zero chance of victory.  It can happen in any game where numbers are important, and it's one of the reasons I tend to avoid many RPGs.


Either way though, I still think that the fact that many players ARE willing to sit and re-roll for hours is proof that SOMETHING about the mechanic in a general sense just isnt right.



I'd love to see the randomness remain;  normally, I'm a fan of any game that includes alot of randomly-generated content.  Roguelikes for example, Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, or THIS game..... I always like the idea, and I play more of this type of game than any other.   But this one particular mechanic is just...... well, really screwy.   It's honestly pretty darn tough to think up a way that makes this REALLY work.

[LintMan]

I like the customization idea (except for the Dexterity stuff - yuck), but I think if I has complete customization control, I'd end up creating cookie-cutter characters every time once I found my "optimal" build.   Some randomization of the starting base stats would discourage this, at least a bit.  I also like the idea of more specialized abilities for the people of different ages.  Maybe the extent of those abilities can be part of the randomization.  I'm thinking randomization where each stat is individually randomized, so you can find ones with all mediocre or cruddy stats or maybe get lucky and find a great one.

What if the character selection screen had tabs for each age that was unlocked, that would show three or four randomized characters of that age, with all their base stats and abilities.  So the player can pick the age they want and have a few choices to pick from.  A re-roll button produces an entire new set of characters.  If a player wants to re-roll for hours looking for the perfect one, so be it - I don't think that's all that tempting for a character that's likely to eventually perma-die anyway, but to the extent that players did do it, it will certainly attach them to their characters that much more.

Then for the upgrades players can apply to the chosen character - I think they should have substantial impact to allow for good customization, but shouldn't be enough to make the initial base stat randomization or the player's "age" meaningless.  My preference would be for linear benefits for upgrade points, but scaled according to character age, or at least base stats.    ie: each mana or health upgrade gives, say, a flat 10% bonus to the character's base mana or health.  So 5 upgrades would give a 50% bonus to the character's base mana or health stat.  Thus, a really low health or mana character could put a lot of points in that stat, but it still will not come close to a character from an age that starts with high health. 

As for character names, I like being given a random one, so I'd like that to still be an option.

[zebramatt]

On second (or perhaps third) thought, I'm not entirely convinced Upgrade Stones need to go away.

It seems to me that there are two key problems with the current implementation:

• They're grindy to collect; and
• They're trivial to spend.

The real problem is this: death is frequent, and to prevent death you need more of these things.  Or you DON'T need more of these things in order to avoid death, in which case they are just overpoweringly unbalanced in your favor and death becomes super infrequent when you aren't at 10/10 upgrades.

Put another way: players will feel compelled to max these upgrades out, whether it is easy or hard.  If it is easy but grindy then it is boring and they complain; but at least the game isn't broken with balance.  If it is hard, then either the penalty for death is enormous or else players who get 10/10 upgrades now have a super-character that they will save-scum to keep.

My goal: forget all that stuff.  Make it zero-cost for them to have these customizations.  The point is the customization itself, not the acquisition.  For the acquisition, see enchants and spells and spell scrolls and all that other stuff that persists past death.

My natural response to that is: Then why isn't the customisation persistent past death?

[Hyfrydle]

Just a quick post before I start work but what about players only create a character once from that point onwards after death the playable characters are randomly generated loosely based on the original character kind of like inheriting traits. This would fit in with the glyph bearers been linked in some way.

[zebramatt]

Just a quick post before I start work but what about players only create a character once from that point onwards after death the playable characters are randomly generated loosely based on the original character kind of like inheriting traits. This would fit in with the glyph bearers been linked in some way.

Now there's an idea!

[Nethellus]

I've got over a thousand continent events on my current continent and 99% of them are abandoned characters. I've even scripted a reroll button of my own, so that I need only press one button to instantly kill my character and bring up the character selection screen again.

Since you can suicide your character with no penalty there is no reason we should not be able to select exactly the character we want instead of having to reroll three hundred times. If you don't want players to be able to do that, give them some kind of penalty for abandoning their characters.

[LintMan]

Since you can suicide your character with no penalty there is no reason we should not be able to select exactly the character we want instead of having to reroll three hundred times. If you don't want players to be able to do that, give them some kind of penalty for abandoning their characters.

Well, the penalty is having to go through all that re-rolling.  I think it should be just a button to press rather than having to actually suicide, but the hurdle of having to do all that re-rolling is still a price to pay for it.

[MaxAstro]

I'm torn between character customization and randomness - I like both.  I think having random baseline stats that you can upgrade is a good idea.  I think not having to farm upgrade stones is a good idea.

However, I also like being able to work to make my character better in a tangible, stat-wise manner.  I also agree, however, that death should not ruin all the upgrading you did, or it makes it grindy.

So here is my idea: What if you get all your upgrades for free, but there was some way to raise the maximum number of upgrades?  For example, you start out with 5 upgrades.  But when you kill your first lieutenant, the max number of upgrades permanantly increases to 6 and you are given an upgrade to spend.  From then on, any character you create would have 6 upgrades.

I actually think tying this to lieutenant/overlord kills is a good idea, as it means that you are getting stronger as the world gets meaner.

But I think this solution keeps the "something to work for" mechanic of upgrade stones while eliminating the grindyness.

EDIT: To clarify, "upgrade stones" would still be gone.  Upgrades would not be something you could "save up"; you'd have to spend them as soon as you got them.