Open thread on combat balance. (Main focus on bosses)

[Nanashi]

I was going to submit all of these separately on Mantis, but I figured it'd be best to think outside of my limited perspective before doing so - these might actually even be intentional factors to make AVWW unique.  As a result, please bear in mind that the entire post will therefore be horribly subjective.

I want the option of more interesting spells in AVWW, but much of the time, they're limited by the possibility of sniping bosses from safe places (few people really care about the fate of trash spawns). This led to a whole tangle of issues with the basic structure of AVWW (why is there the possibility or even the need to snipe?), so I'd like to bring them up here as they can then be addressed in a gestalt manner rather than piecemeal.

Here is an example of a fairly typical AVWW boss room encounter:



Much of the encounters are spent sniping at enemy healthbars from offscreen, so bosses are reduced to a floating green healthbar. I could get closer, but there is no reward associated in doing so, just the risk of getting hit by 20 projectiles at once and dying instantly.

Issue #1) AVWW has no overall on-hit invulnerability period.
Every game which I've played that doesn't kill you in 1 hit (Analog lifebar systems) gives you a temporary invincibility grace period on being hit. I simply cannot think of any exceptions, from Zelda to Cave Story. As AVWW doesn't, it is possible to take multiple high-density hits at once. This is the main cause for mossy barrel insta-gibs (which were rebalanced, but some extant examples still remain, like insanity canisters). It's also a lot easier to adjust and re-balance damage when you don't have to factor the possibility of multiple hits, so you can get an accurate idea of how much damage a monster really does.

AVWW actually does have a temporary damage immunity period, but it only applies per-damage source, rather than temporarily shielding from all damage.

Nothing makes me more frustrated than having my health go from maximum to zero in a split-second. I detest spiky damage.

Issue #2) AVWW's boss rooms are simply too huge.
I've noticed this issue getting better since the last patch, which introduced a plethora of new and interesting rooms. I still however feel that boss rooms are too large. Obviously, for multi-boss events, this is good, but I come from the school of thinking that bosses should be Bosses (with a capital B) and that they should be treated as Prima donnas. One should not be allowed to fire offscreen at some incongruous healthbar and kill a boss without even doing it the basic courtesy of seeing what it looks like on your screen. I believe that boss combat should be heavily dodge-based, as opposed to cover-based, as dodging is inherently more involving and exciting than sniping from cover. There must be clear and present danger, especially given that you can shoot in any direction in AVWW.

I have heard the counter-opinion that with monster spawners in place, dodging isn't possible on harder difficulty levels - and one cannot avoid taking damage without the use of cover and distance. This sounds a bit like bad design to me (Actually, quite a bit like Diablo 3, where you throw a bunch of random mods on a monster encounter and expect it to be balanced). Implementing the aforesaid invincibility period would certainly help, although there certainly are other methods which could be used - such as decreasing the projectile density on harder difficulties.

I believe dodging balance can be achieved. I enjoy free-fall missions quite a lot precisely because I think they're intense and involve a lot of calculated movement/dodging. They're what I want boss battles to be.

Issue #3) Boss encounters are largely unrewarding obstacles.
They tend to be "Defeat X to progress" and just forms of upgraded trash at the moment. Nothing makes me want to seek them out and destroy them, if anything, I just avoid them because they're annoying and a hassle to find in large boss rooms when I just want to speed to the exit. There could be a reward, even if it was just an enchant canister.

Issue #4) Too much homing or direct targetting.
Partly due to aforesaid huge rooms and our 360 degree angle of shots, quite a large amount of bosses use a wide variety of long-distance homing projectiles which isn't so much a problem per se except that it reinforces kiting offscreen and finding cover to shoot at floating healthbars. I actually enjoy northern lights rushing around spamming rockslides because they're one of the few attacks which isn't directly targetted at you (directly targetted shots make dodging very homogeneous). I also kind of preferred it when they had no Y-axis movement whatsoever, because it gave them a bit of character.

Issue #5) Many bosses have terrible vertical movement.
Shooting fish in a barrel is easy, but it's not particularly fun. It's fine for trash, like aforesaid Northern Lights, but put it on a boss and it's just tragic. Also partly caused by Issue #2 (ridiculously huge rooms) and bosses being trapped on the bottom floor. Giant Skelebots and those large black bulls are particularly pathetic.

There were more points, but I think this is enough for now. I realise that obviously few people are going to share my love for 2D CQC bosses, but it'd just be nice to be able to toggle these settings (such as limited overall invincibility) on or off in the difficulty settings so that we could all have our cakes and eat them.

[Misery]

I think it also really depends on the player.

I'm used to really, really difficult games (ones that are WAY harder than this one), and used to dodging 8 squillion bullets at once (danmakus).   As such, this game doesnt give me all that much trouble, even on the highest difficulty.

Playing on either Master Hero or Chosen One (currently Chosen One), I still very rarely "snipe" at any boss.  If it's not on the screen, I'm likely not firing at it.

And beyond even that, I tend to make heavy use of some of the low-range spells.  The Brimstone Cyclone, for instance.  Even on this high difficulty, my main attack against it is actually Insect Orb, or Ice Cross if it has Earth resistance.  I dont bother engaging this boss from a distance. 

That's not to say I dont use the straight-shot spells like Ball Lightning and whatever, obviously I'm gonna use those.... but I tend to also use alot of the funkier spells, and do just alot of melee in general.   In all honesty, I cant think of any bosses that I'm not at least somewhat close to while fighting.    The stupid Elder T-Rex, for instance.   I'm usually *really* close to him during the entire fight.  Two Rexes worth of distance.... no further than that, often closer to him.   Even his "holy crap lotsa dinos" attack isnt THAT bad, if you know what to do.   A quick shield and a burst of Insect Orb generally clears most of those dinos in one blast;  if there's some leftover ones I'll run around and shoot them, before resuming my position in front of the boss.

Also, I should note..... I dont abuse the shields.   This is all done by dodging.    Even at a close distance, even on Chosen one, most attacks CAN be dodged.   If I shield, it's a quick one-second burst or so, which is how I've always used them. 


These tactics do not change if there are multiple bosses, or perhaps boss plus slimes, or in some rare cases, multiple bosses AND slimes.  Or blades or whatever.   I'm impatient and aggressive, so it wont occur to me to NOT charge at the boss.   Even in danmaku shmups, I tend to try and point-blank everything.


Buuuuuut..... the reason why I can do this at all, is because I actually try it.   It's not true that there is no reward for attempting such a strategy.   The reward is that your own personal skill increases.   If you just sit back and snipe....  yeah, you're not gonna get much better at it, and you'll be less likely to survive one of the "meaner" encounters, when the game sticks you in a tiny room with something horrible, as it likes to do every now and then.   Dont get me wrong..... this isnt easy to learn to do.  It's the sorta thing that takes real practice, and you're GOING to die about a billionty times in the process, same as with learning a shmup.   But it can be done.

As it is, I think the boss fights are some of the best parts of the game, particularly considering how the difficulty of a given fight can change based on what the RNG does.   The room shape, the enemies that are spawning in the room, stuff like that, can randomly make an easy boss into a really, really hard one, or a nasty boss into something that you just wreck immediately.



Now, that being said, I agree on some points.   Some boss rooms are too big.   Some of them really seem like they're designed for MULTIPLE bosses, but the game will still select them for single bosses;  this leads to the type of boss room where, upon first entering, you have to actually seek the thing out, rather than just start fighting right away, which is kinda annoying.   Sniping might not be as much of an option.... and therefore, players might not rely on it so much..... if the rooms were properly selected for what they will contain, one boss, or many.   


A couple more points:

I dont think AVWW needs on-hit invulnerability.   In all honesty, I'm glad it doesnt have that.  It'd DRAMATICALLY reduce the challenge, and it'd screw with alot of numbers.  If I get hit by like 30 fireballs at once..... yeah, I should take ALOT of damage.  It's 30 freaking fireballs.  It shouldnt just damage me for ONE of them, and ignore the others because of magical blinking.   If I dont want to take that kind of monstrous damage, I should, perhaps, not allow myself to get hit by 30 fireballs in the first place.    And heck, even then, the game is being generous.   This game takes alot of inspiration from the shmup genre, and the thing about the shmup genre is..... one hit, you're dead.    Just one.   Even in a danmaku game, with 90 squillion bullets coming at you at once..... just one kills you. 

I also agree that there's too many homing attacks.   It's not that they're even difficult to deal with.... frankly, I think most of them are EASY to deal with;  bosses that use this attack type too often, are usually bosses that I can wreck really fast (and not from a long distance).     I would indeed like to see some more variety here.     Now, there IS variety.... you've got things like the Elder Rex and his direct fire spam, the Amoebas and their various spreadshots, the big green frog dude and his horrible exploding green things that fill the area with a million shots, or stuff like the Brimstone Cyclone and it's wacky curved shots and repulsor field.   But yeah, too much of the homing stuff.

[Nanashi]

@Misery: It's an open thread, just feel free to express your opinions. I'd rather the thread not get into a "I refute all your opinions" debate mode, because that's frankly not the point of an open thread. Your opinion is absolutely valid.

I personally don't think dodging is difficult nor impossible - with the possible exception of blue whale fish spam (those homing kamikaze fish it spawns are fast but you can kill them with projectiles even if it's not "dodging"), but it's a piece of feedback I got when I submitted the smaller room idea. (I don't play on the hardest difficulty level). I *can* see the possibility of a small room having a brimstone cyclone sit on your face though, but I have lesser teleport hot-keyed for a reason. >_>

Btw, I play Touhou and clear lunatic regularly - but I don't think of AVWW as a danmaku game. No bombs and multiple lives. Getting hit in Touhou also gives you temp invincibility on your next life when you respawn. A better comparison might be IWBTG (which is a digital life game, not an analog one).

[BenMiff]

I tend to play the sniper playstyle, and I still find that the boss fights can be interesting. I'll snipe even in smaller rooms, simply because I fnd that keeping my distance makes things easier; I like to focus on my aiming (since I play keyboard + mouse) which takes some attention away from dodging. I still have to dodge a bit in my hiding place since most boss attacks slide at the very least. Chaser bosses I find play as a mad dash to try and find a suitable hiding place (or open area to loop around them for smaller chasers), which I find fun, while homing projectiles become a case of interception (and running like heck if things are too bad - this tends to be a case predominantly with major living fires.)

I do like boss room variety, though (and I suspect it shows in my map submissions ). That said, I would like better vertical movement, since outside of chase bosses it seems pretty rare.

I'd also have to agree with on-hit invulnerability not being the "base" state. Single instance damage seems low enough for me to get away with a few hits (playing on one-above-the-default difficulty level, whatever it's called), and higher difficulties should be brutal to my mind since they're there to be brutal. I'd also argue that on-hit invulnerability tends to result in some complacency since then when you are hit you don't need to worry about the rest of the incoming attacks in that "burst", making multi-attacks significantly less potent; it'd also become a case that each hit would need to be much heftier to balance it out, turning attacks into all-or-nothing affairs rather than accomodating a range of skill.

[Misery]

@Misery: It's an open thread, just feel free to express your opinions. I'd rather the thread not get into a "I refute all your opinions" debate mode, because that's frankly not the point of an open thread. Your opinion is absolutely valid.

I personally don't think dodging is difficult nor impossible - with the possible exception of blue whale fish spam (those homing kamikaze fish it spawns are fast but you can kill them with projectiles even if it's not "dodging"), but it's a piece of feedback I got when I submitted the smaller room idea. (I don't play on the hardest difficulty level). I *can* see the possibility of a small room having a brimstone cyclone sit on your face though, but I have lesser teleport hot-keyed for a reason. >_>

Btw, I play Touhou and clear lunatic regularly - but I don't think of AVWW as a danmaku game. No bombs and multiple lives. Getting hit in Touhou also gives you temp invincibility on your next life when you respawn. A better comparison might be IWBTG (which is a digital life game, not an analog one).

Eh, most of that was the best way I could think of to explain the points I was trying to make.  I'm not so good at explaining stuff like that;  I usually leave MYSELF baffled afterwards, haha.    I sure as heck aint trying to refute your opinion and such.   Mostly, it's just each point as seen from my own point of view.   Despite that my point of view tends to be a little warped.

I'd also have to agree with on-hit invulnerability not being the "base" state. Single instance damage seems low enough for me to get away with a few hits (playing on one-above-the-default difficulty level, whatever it's called), and higher difficulties should be brutal to my mind since they're there to be brutal. I'd also argue that on-hit invulnerability tends to result in some complacency since then when you are hit you don't need to worry about the rest of the incoming attacks in that "burst", making multi-attacks significantly less potent; it'd also become a case that each hit would need to be much heftier to balance it out, turning attacks into all-or-nothing affairs rather than accomodating a range of skill.

Not to mention, that on-hit-invincibility can be really abused.

La-Mulana is a great example of it.   Enemies in that actually have interesting, diverse, and challenging patterns..... but once you reach a certain level of max health (and it's not a very high level at all), you can start to use the strategy of "just ignore it".   Get hit by something, just keep walking.  Get hit by something else, just keep walking.   So on and so forth. As long as you still kill some stuff here and there, your EXP will fill and your health will recharge LONG before you run out of HP.   That game, good as it is, didn't handle health/damage very well.



As for the topic here, I love that the game ALLOWS for such varied playstyles as these.   So many games really dont.....

[Mánagarmr]

I've proposed temporary damage immunity before, and it was a solid NO from the devs. I can't seem to remember the reason. I'll see if I can dig it up.

EDIT: Nope, even after extensive searching, I can't find it on the forums. Must've been Mantis then.

EDIT 2: Yep, here it is.

[keith.lamothe]

Issue #1) AVWW has no overall on-hit invulnerability period.
Every game which I've played that doesn't kill you in 1 hit (Analog lifebar systems) gives you a temporary invincibility grace period on being hit. I simply cannot think of any exceptions, from Zelda to Cave Story.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Torchlight/Diablo/etc genre doesn't have that kind of on-hit invulnerability.

AVWW does have somewhat more in common with Zelda than with Torchlight, but it's definitely not all the way on the Zelda side of that spectrum.

Anyway, as Chris said in the mantis thread Fox linked: we tried the on-hit-invulnerability thing earlier on in development for probably a month or two.  We hated it.  It causes far more balance problems than it solves.

Explosion insta-gibs are a problem and can be solved another way; namely balancing it so that a direct-center-hit does the reasonable (harsh-ish) kind of damage it should and if you're not central enough to it to get by all parts you may not wind up taking much damage at all.


I don't have much to say about the other stuff since I don't have much involvement in the actual combat balance.  Now that spell modifiers are a thing I suspect I'll need feedback on how those impact balance: my guess is that the cooldown-increase, movement-reduction, and shot-speed-reduction debuffs on enemies is wildly unbalanced against bosses because:
- they stack (they're only 3 seconds long, but still)
- a level 1 spell with +20% cooldowns will affect a level 100 overlord just the same as anything else
- in multiplayer, locking down a boss with concentrated fire of the same debuff would probably be almost trivially easy
- even outside multiplayer, the multi-shot spells can apply the debuff multiple times, potentially causing one-shot lockdown

My guess with those is to make sure they can't stack or can only have two stacks or something like that.

[Nanashi]

@Fox: That's alright - I knew it'd be an unpopular suggestion, which is entlrey the reason why I suggested making it optional. I prefer a style of game with MUCH higher damage per hit and temporary invincibility, but it's just taste. (I hope they rebalance those stupid insanity explosions though - the only things I ever really die to are hard-to-see multihit explosions and it's always from taking a 360 or so damage multihit from full health. This may actually be an art problem since it's sometimes difficult to see exploding projectiles.)

The more important question is: What do YOU think about the combat? Especially with regard to boss fights.

@keith: They don't. That was the primary cause of MSLE deaths (multishot lightning enchanted), which they eventually patched out, and blockstun death (you could be trapped in block animation frames until you died).

To be honest, AVWW doesn't really need the temporary invincibility (I wasn't actually thinking of a noticable period of blinking - a 1-2 frame period of invincibility would be long enough), but I'm trying to think of factors that would make CQC more appealing (without it, melee is usually kind of unnecessarily risky) and reduce the instant gib from shrapnel.

Slightly different style of game, but I stand corrected. Then again, I don't really think of Diablo 2 as a dodging game, but 3 certainly is (It gets quite a lot of flak for it)!

I'll try to give you feedback on those, but it requires the game to spawn more of those modifiers first. One ironic thing is that the temp invulnerability protection is also sometimes used on enemies to space out battles so that bosses last a bit longer to multi-hit player moves. Currently, one of the highest output damage spells on large enemies is Ice Cross, because it hits so many times, for example. I can one or two shot many large bosses with it.

[SerratedSabre]

For the most part I'm ok with how the bosses are right now. I treat them as hurdles to plow through when they get in the way, and I figure I'm going to run into them eventually, so I don't actively seek them out. So far that I've played the only kinda dull fight are the fairies, as I have to track them all over the place while they do insignificant damage. Come to think of it, shrinking the boss rooms a tad would be nice, though hopefully still big enough to deal with "RRRAGH GIANT FROG BULLET VOMIT EVERYWHERE" situations.

In some cases I figure bosses could use personal tweaks. Giant Skelbots could use scouting probes to try and harass players into approaching, and only using them if the player is too far away. Stuff to make fights more interesting.

[darkchair]

Playing on The Chosen One without Shields

I find that in most cases I cannot snipe enemies, as their spell range far exceeds mine. I'm forced to get in dangerously close to even have the chance to hit them.
Usually if I'm hitting them from off screen, I'm taking the big risk of not knowing where their projectiles are coming from, so I can be surprised or worse swamped by shots suddenly, leading to a quick death.
I think a lot of this is because of the higher difficulty though... don't remember exactly.
Yes some of the behavior is annoying and could be polished, but I think the combat is passable, at least at the higher difficulties. Things like Elder Dark Bull, Mechs, and Giant Wasp are usually pretty easy, while things like Gargadons and Elder(?) Jellyfish can be ludicrous.

But sure, if temporary invincibility is easy to implement then why not give the options?

Perhaps a solution to these big boss areas would be to zoom out the camera a bit in these rooms?

[Mánagarmr]

Zooming out would probably not be an option. I'm playing on 1920x1080, and most my spells barely reach the edge of the screen, and at that resolution, texture tiling becomes and issue on some backgrounds. Further zooming out would likely emphasize this issue further.

[Gemzo]

I was going to open this post with talking about my combat style, but I had an idea...

I was thinking, since these "bosses" are actually minibosses, I figure they're not supposed to be really "bosses" but just really big speed bumps. What if there were also "bosses" with a rigged set of boss rooms they can spawn in, custom-tailored for that fight? They could still have some procedural elements involved (like ladders being there or not) so they're not the exact same boss fight as the last time you got that room, or w/e. These bosses would take charge and force the player to dodge or take cover or whatever, depending on the room. But since these rooms are designed for them specifically, the cover wouldn't equate to a sniping position and/or they may even still be vulnerable to other attacks besides the one they used it to avoid, even if they're offscreen. Hell, they should be able to get onscreen easily and dish out attacks if the player runs away, or send powerful long range projectiles to encourage the player to keep it within a fair distance. And since these rooms are rigged, you could regulate the monster spawns from nests for each type of boss so that it's not too crazy (eg miasma bat swarm suddenly during a tough fight, or a wisp and you're dead guaranteed).

I know the lieutenant/overlord fights are probably already filling the role of "bosses" but they just feel like super powerful minibosses currently... So yeah.

Anyway, as for my style... I do anything I can to survive. If it means kiting a monster from offscreen to stay out of a moshpit of death, so be it. But not every situation can be solved like that. In the end I do everything I can to hit while avoid being hit. If I can dodge an attack while still attacking, I'll do it. But if I can't and have to fall back, I either have to use a shield or get out of there. If I'm unable to keep up the offense due to the mana the shield takes (even in short bursts), the latter option is my only choice. These tactics lead to having a fairly low death count even on TCO... But I would still rather actually have bosses onscreen for more of the fight, really. But I just naturally stick to the plan that leads to victory with the best chance of survival. If offscreen fighting is somehow stopped, I'll adapt and find another way to survive.

[TechSY730]

I would agree with the observation the most bosses serve a role closer to mini-bosses right now.
Although having custom tailored rooms for certian types of bosses spawning every now and then would be cool, I think a good place to start on that track would be for lieutenants and overlords. Maybe there can be a couple of boss room template types marked a lieutenant only rooms, overlord only rooms, and a few even only for certain boss enemy types (where if is such a room for that boss type, it would have a much larger chance of spawning with such a room). This would help give a more epic feel to them, rather than just sort of the mini-boss+ or mini-boss++ most of the lieutenants and overlords currently feel like.

And I would agree that some larger boss rooms should be marked multi-boss only, and maybe some of the smaller boss rooms should single-boss only.

Overall though, I think the combat itself is fine.
A temporary invincibility after hit could work, but it would have to be kept VERY short. (Like the 2 or 3 frames as suggested earlier short)

[Misery]

Playing on The Chosen One without Shields

I find that in most cases I cannot snipe enemies, as their spell range far exceeds mine. I'm forced to get in dangerously close to even have the chance to hit them.
Usually if I'm hitting them from off screen, I'm taking the big risk of not knowing where their projectiles are coming from, so I can be surprised or worse swamped by shots suddenly, leading to a quick death.
I think a lot of this is because of the higher difficulty though... don't remember exactly.
Yes some of the behavior is annoying and could be polished, but I think the combat is passable, at least at the higher difficulties. Things like Elder Dark Bull, Mechs, and Giant Wasp are usually pretty easy, while things like Gargadons and Elder(?) Jellyfish can be ludicrous.

But sure, if temporary invincibility is easy to implement then why not give the options?

Perhaps a solution to these big boss areas would be to zoom out the camera a bit in these rooms?

If you're having trouble attacking from a distance, due to enemy range being higher, you might consider some enchants that can undo that problem.   A full cloak enchant can do it, and a projectile-speed increase has the effect of firing them farther (so you can hit at a better range;  I do this in JtP missions quite alot).   For the cloak, it doesnt necessarily need to be an actual "cloak" enchant, it might instead be a different enchant that perhaps has something like "-15% detectability" as an effect;  even that can be useful, as it'll reduce the range at which enemies initially start attacking.  You'd still have to be somewhat careful though, as once they DO start attacking they'll keep on doing so. 

I was going to open this post with talking about my combat style, but I had an idea...

I was thinking, since these "bosses" are actually minibosses, I figure they're not supposed to be really "bosses" but just really big speed bumps. What if there were also "bosses" with a rigged set of boss rooms they can spawn in, custom-tailored for that fight? They could still have some procedural elements involved (like ladders being there or not) so they're not the exact same boss fight as the last time you got that room, or w/e. These bosses would take charge and force the player to dodge or take cover or whatever, depending on the room. But since these rooms are designed for them specifically, the cover wouldn't equate to a sniping position and/or they may even still be vulnerable to other attacks besides the one they used it to avoid, even if they're offscreen. Hell, they should be able to get onscreen easily and dish out attacks if the player runs away, or send powerful long range projectiles to encourage the player to keep it within a fair distance. And since these rooms are rigged, you could regulate the monster spawns from nests for each type of boss so that it's not too crazy (eg miasma bat swarm suddenly during a tough fight, or a wisp and you're dead guaranteed).

I know the lieutenant/overlord fights are probably already filling the role of "bosses" but they just feel like super powerful minibosses currently... So yeah.

I've had this thought as well quite often.

The Overlords seem fine, due to them actually being an entirely different boss that never appears under any other circumstance,

but the Lieutenants could do with a bit of an overhaul.   They really are just somewhat beefed up versions of the normal bosses, and are often not as challenging as the tower area that precedes them.   The thought I'd had is this:  Why not alter the bosses themselves a bit?  Currently, the game only seems to up some stats on them, and that's it;  more attack, more health, that sort of thing.   But why not alter their patterns?   As an example, the Giant Skelebot could have it's basic fire attack shoot a bit more rapidly, and at the same time, it fires a slow-moving spreadshot of some element or other every few seconds.  It's a simple addition, but that sort of idea alone could make these very different fights.   I would love these guys to be a bit more powerful and challenging than they are;  they seem like the "real" bosses of any given continent (as opposed to mini-bosses, and the Overlord is more of a final-boss in my view), so they should be pretty tough to deal with.   They could also be a different color to signify that they arent the usual things you see often.

Having specialized rooms for lieutenants would definitely be a good idea too;  there is already a seperate list of rooms just for Overlords, I'm surprised there isnt one for these guys as well.  They get their own completely unique tower area that you have to pass through, but then it's the same ol' boss rooms after that.

[darkchair]

I don't use the detectability enchants either as well, they're up there with shields in power level and ruin the game IMO.
Maybe I should get some longer range, but that's still not going to solve things like boss jellyfish throwing 150 damage sliding shots at you from farther than you can shoot.
It's not a problem for me personally, I enjoy it. I just wanted to mention that on TCO you get less situations of bosses being stupid and not moving towards you or attacking you properly.