Author Topic: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it  (Read 7216 times)

Offline Penumbra

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 03:57:21 pm »
I once made a suggestion on Mantis that we have ammo counts in the spell bar, like the health stones do. It would simply represent how many more times the spell could be cast with the current amount of mana. That could help with understanding how "big" your mana bar is without resorting to math.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 04:01:31 pm by Penumbra »

Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 07:01:00 pm »
When it comes to monsters, it's true the "how many more hits can I take" question is something that you can't easily answer without a lot of internal math.  To some extent, that's just the nature of games of this sort, especially when it comes to realtime.  In most RPGs in particular, you can see a lot of the stats but the mental math about the number of hits that you can take really varies.

And for enemies it even changes when they change spells, so you really can't count on the numbers they show there.  It would be better to at least show the percentage of your base health that enemy attacks will do, in addition to the raw number, in the pause menu.  And we'd have to show that for all the possible attacks that they could do, which could be substantial.  But that's probably worth doing at some point.

To some extent, I feel like we're getting overly analytical for the genre in terms of actual damage amounts -- how much damage does a given monster in Metroid do to you?  You never know, but you can see exactly how much energy you have (as a number), as well as the other energy tanks.  If you felt like cataloging exactly how much damage they do, you could.  Even in Zelda, where it uses a really non-granular system of hearts to represent health and damage done, how much damage does a given monster deal to you?  I certainly can't tell you, and I've been playing all the Zelda games many times over each since I was a kid.

The thing is, none of those things kill you instantly when you have a reasonable amount of health to start with.  The general rule of thumb is always "don't get hit if you can avoid it," of course.  But over time, you get hit some and can generally get a sense for what seems to do a lot of damage to you versus what does not.  And so you get a sense for what to really avoid versus what is less of a threat.  I think that the same holds true for AVWW, but here you have the added advantage of the numbers.  If you know that Monster A is not that dangerous, and you can remember that it did around 5k damage, and you see that this new monster does 15k damage... well, this new one is a lot more dangerous.  That can shorten the learning cycle in terms of getting a feel for the monster.

I don't mean to be overly resistant here, and in most cases I really like visual systems as well.  But ultimately, no system that I can think of, visual or numbers-wise, would be any clearer than what we have right now in actual practice.  People mostly need to get a sense for new monsters that they meet, and the vitality stones provide some security for that without so much threat of death.

I once made a suggestion on Mantis that we have ammo counts in the spell bar, like the health stones do. It would simply represent how many more times the spell could be cast with the current amount of mana. That could help with understanding how "big" your mana bar is without resorting to math.

I think that, for spellgems, that would be the best solution, actually -- rather than trying to adjust the mana bar.  The only thing is, during actual combat it's really hard to ever look down at either thing, making them kind of low priority for me because I think the likelihood that anyone would ever use them is really low.  And since mana is constantly recharging, these would be flipping around to an annoying degree.  It might help with planning attacks, but even that is dubious because since the mana recharges while you are using spells, you'll always inevitably be able to cast far more than the count would hint at (and in many cases the real amount is "infinite, so long as you don't fast-click instantly when cooldowns expire").

That's why I'm a bit wary of making the interface more complex, or adding more numbers or whatever.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 07:45:43 pm »
So to revise this post, i decided less writing, more images.. i can haz proven my point. I think my interface mockup looks better, flows better, and works better, than the bars with numbers in them. All the while using at best 10 pixel more vertical screenspace (obviously some more thought has to be put into how to display health increases via vitality stones...)

And here is my suggested Interface mockup, just to showcase how incredible more effective this style of a HUD would be in displaying information ;)

By the way, that number font is called News Gothic, and the Text font is called Myriad Pro, in case someone wonders why that looks different to the game

Was a 20m mockup ;) Love doing these kinds of things..

Ps.: the "brighter / darker" difference can obviously be reversed, i like if the max-total is brighter but readability might make it more useful to have the current value brighter than the max-total and the grey "of" is VITAL in separating the 2 values. I tried with 2 different brightnesses as you can see... i like the brighter one more ;p

I hope this explains what I mean sufficiently

Anyhow, i added T2 of my mockup to include the TIER text which i think takes too much space in the current GUI

I suggest the same style as this for enemy healthbars as well.. TIER text can even become more monumental or a central piece of Info in between, with Health and Mana text left and right of the tier window, this would allow for the Icons to be left and right of the Health and Mana bar instead of everything cramped to the left.

(I guess i trailed off-topic in my own topic) ;p

PPs.: Those glowy parts of the "prediction" section should also pulsate so that it becomes a nicely looking effect.

GUI Polish ftw ;P

PPPs.: IN T2 i funnily enough forgot to adapt the health bar to what it was in T1.. i was testing something else and forgot to change it back ;p

PPPPs.: I know that i used dots instead of commas.. and there is a reason
Commas look messy in gui design.. there , thats my whole reason.  :D
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 06:17:40 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2012, 06:25:37 am »
The damage prediction... do you conceive of it being maximum possible damage from the enemy in question, based on its most powerful spell; or a mean or a median or something?

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 06:36:20 am »
Well, thats a good question

It could even be an optional toggle feature with some depth

1) Plain last damage based prediction
2) average damage prediction of whatever mouse is over or tab is locked on to (taking resistances into account)
3) Allow us to set a "damage accumulation" which basically means, this highlight will display say, 3*the last damage as prediction so that you can assess if you should REALLY quickly flee when your whole bar flashes
4) Repeater mode - displays in a ######## pattern the last damage and displays how many approximate hits you can take and repeats this to fill your healthbar (this could be interes

I don't want this to be a super exact science, all i really want with this a general visual flow on how much of my "resources" are spent per action and hit etc. There can even be rounding, and the box nature of this bar is merely for giggles, i would be content with a solid and finely calculated bar or the blocks here.

My point was merely, that the current GUI is not what i think when i think GUI. You gotta agree my mock-up does look pretty informative even on first glance unlike the current GUI (and if not, then i would like to know why you think not, because i find this kind of stuff very interesting) ;P

For Mana options could be
1) Last spell
2) Last spell the mouse was over
3) Last 3 spells average (not average, cumulative confused the words would be not very useful otherwise ;p)
4) Repeater mode
Sidenote: After thinking, i think repeater mode might be silly, because it causes visual overload.

This is all purely visual helper stuff though. I don't want gameplay to change, i want the visual information flow to become.. well. Visual flowy..

And by the way, if enemies get this bar (or a smaller/less intrusive one) one could think about even better feedback related to what resistances the enemy has, the current smallish icons.. i find them.. too smallish and not immersive enough. And the enemy health also only displays the current health (which in this case is OK but not great) Particularly if enemies at some point can regenerate or absorb health
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 06:41:53 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2012, 09:07:44 am »
Well, that's interesting in some respects, but I really have to say: that's completely out of scope for anytime soon.  "Shipping Is A Feature, Too," at the moment.  So to speak.  The general method of display for this method is a bit different from our current system, but to a casual or new player I don't think it would make any difference.  Pretty much all my prior points still stand, as far as where my head is at.

I will add, however, that damage prediction seems completely out of the question because it's just not going to work all of the time.  If enemies have rare extra-powerful shots that they hit with occasionally, you'd have no warning of that -- but the sense that you should have been warned, since damage is normally predicted.  Also, for enemies that fire many shots at once, if they hit you with all the shots that does on amount of damage (such as if you are right on top of them), but if you are further away and just get hit by one bit of the shot, it does another amount.  If an enemy fires a missile at you and it hits you, you get damaged by the missile and the explosion.  If the enemy just hits a nearby crate, you might still take damage from the explosion.  If the enemy fires a slow-moving piercing shot, and you're careless about your own movements, you could wind up getting hit by that one shot multiple times.  If the enemy changes forms, it has completely other abilities that might have very different stats.  If the enemy has multiple components to itself, such as extra missile bays and such, each of those have their own stats.  If the enemy melees you, that's a whole other set of damage.

All of those stats are based on the stats that you see in the pause menu, but they don't match exactly.   What I mean is, if attack A does 1.2x and B does 0.8x the damage of the base magical attack power of the skelebot giant, for instance, then any skelebot giant -- regardless of its base magical attack power -- will have attack A do 1.2x that value and attack B do 0.8x that value.  So the number is still helpful in determining the relative power of an enemy -- is this bigger or smaller than a bread basket, to use the cliche.  What it won't do, and really can't do, is tell you when you're about to die for sure.

Nor do I think it should -- if you're skirting the edge of life and death... well, that's a choice you make, to see if you can stay a bit longer, or to run away and come back to fight another day.  Mechanically speaking, this is a mashup of a shmup and an adventure game and a Metroidvania-style action game.  What you're really looking for, I think, is RPG-style number-crunching decision-making ability.  And that's simply never going to exist in this game, as things happen too fast and not enough information is given to you.  Hope that makes sense.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2012, 11:30:27 am »
One thing that might help, rather than prediction, is visual cues helping you understand what just happened.  Specifically something that's been in fighting games and other genres for a while:

- When you get hit, the portion of the bar that was removed by the hit doesn't immediately go away, instead it turns from green to red and gradually fades out (either reducing in size until gone, or fading to transparent, or physically falling off the screen, etc).

Something similar can be done with the mana bar; basically whenever a negative delta is applied to a bar, and it makes sense to show it like that.

Maybe that was already mentioned, I haven't read the whole thread :)
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2012, 11:41:23 am »
Maybe that was already mentioned, I haven't read the whole thread :)

Some brilliant and erudite poster may have mentioned something similar the bottom of the last page.  ;D

Offline Bluddy

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 11:53:13 am »
Maybe that was already mentioned, I haven't read the whole thread :)

Some brilliant and erudite poster may have mentioned something similar the bottom of the last page.  ;D

And there I went and 'mantis'ed said erudite poster's suggestion thinking I was original...

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 11:58:57 am »
Haha, ok, that would happen when I neglected to read it all :)
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 01:21:51 pm »
Although it certainly adds a credence to the idea, several people all deriving it as an optimum solution independently of one another.

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2012, 03:48:44 pm »
Reading all that is pointless anyway ;) Just look at the images.. and hopefully they invoke a "oh my, we gotta do this it looks so much slicker!!!!111! " emotion.

Its still Version 0.5 so plenty of time to implement GUI polish - and that said.. i find it pretty funny that everyone is hung up on my last feature suggestion, which is merely an "what-we-could-do" thing like.. just look at the images and agree ;P Because I know you agree it looks better and flows better ^^

Whether its prediction or animated loss does not matter, as long as the GUI doesn't look like it does now ;) It's all about first impressions, no? ;P

If you say this GUI re-do is out of the question then I'll be silent about it though, but you gotta say it or else i am going to keep pushing for this...  the GUI is what players first see, so i think everything should be done to have a GUI that can easily measure up to any AAA game that did GUI. The GUI is the Interface between us and the game ;P All praise the mighty GUI (like I could resist that!)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 03:53:26 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2012, 03:59:41 pm »
The problem isn't whether or not it looks slicker, it's whether or not it meshes with the rest of the game, in terms of that -- and it doesn't really, as drawn there.  We also only have about 6ish weeks or so until hitting 1.0, so there's not as much time as you might think.  If we're going to be hitting our goal, I mean.

The GUI that you mocked up does look incredibly nice, but it looks like it came out of a space game or a AAA quality 3D game.  Putting that on top of the rest of our graphics is just going to look odd, I think.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2012, 04:07:46 pm »
Well you can always take it as Inspiration later on ;) In the end the style is easily changed to anything you want really (It doesn't even have to a bar.. see Diablo 2), as long as the basic template is there, and you could even make it a modable thing so we can have various GUI themes... just saying ;p

Anyway.. i see your point. But i see nothing wrong with a sci-fi'ish GUI in a .. sci-fi game. Unless you don't regard AVWW as that? It looks pretty sci-fi to me... in fact my character seems to be wearing white space marine armor... so it must be sci-fi ;P
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Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2012, 04:08:36 pm »
Well, it's a mix of sci-fi and fantasy, to be sure.  Most of the interface is pretty fantasy, though.
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