Author Topic: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it  (Read 6972 times)

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2012, 04:15:55 pm »
Just change the bar texture add some art-decor snorkels and the revised health and mana and tier HUD elements look fantasy.. ;)

Hehe, this reminds me of AI War talks we had back then ;P

I guess you are too busy right now finishing the game to care about such maybe on first sight unimportant things, but I think.. people will notice unpolished HUD, particularly as the rest of your game interface looks really slick, its just when we are in the game, that there is a sudden break of style from nice and moody fantasy to not-really-any-style-at-all.

And if thats the case, i don't see why there is a problem just going all out and make the HUD an obvious high-tech inspired one (It would mesh well with the story for AVWW.. just saying)
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Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2012, 04:20:56 pm »
It's true, first impressions do really matter... I'll have to see what we can do.  Right now isn't exactly the week for it, though, as there are more pressing concerns in the really short term. ;)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2012, 04:23:06 pm »
Then I'll be patient ;)
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Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2012, 04:24:27 pm »
Thanks. :)

Hope you like the new skies, by the way -- much better than the old ones, IMO.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2012, 05:15:43 pm »
;) Usually when I don't like something I tend to mention it quite extravagantly in a huge mock-up post like this... hehe.. but to answer the question.. yep, skies are fine ;) Look better than those weird layered noise permutations .. that sky system just didn't flow too well as 2D Background behind the parallax so thats a good change..  :D
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2012, 05:29:29 pm »
Hey that mention of parallax reminds me, I was going to complain about that a little bit. Maybe it's just me, but the parallax seems a little too parallax-y. Side to side motion is fine, but in an area with a lot of mountains in the background, the amount of shift when you move up and down seems a bit extreme. It looks less like the illusion of depth that it's intended to be, and more like a wild earthquake. Am I alone here, or do the background layers feel a bit too bouncy to anyone else?

Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2012, 05:50:25 pm »
bouncy background layers fixed <-- that'd read awesome in the patch-notes ,P

Meaning, yeah.. the effect is a bit drastic...
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Offline Bluddy

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2012, 06:18:16 pm »
The parallax issue appears to happen when you're at a certain height. If you happen to be on a hill and then jump, above a certain height the parallax backgrounds move down -- a lot! This won't happen if you jump at a lower level. The effect probably isn't necessary -- sideways motion is enough.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2012, 06:29:19 pm »
We won't know until we test. I need a distant mountain range and a trampoline, stat!

Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2012, 06:45:00 pm »
Alright, fine:

* Reduced the "bouncy background parallax factor."  There's still some y-axis parallax to the background mountains and trees, but it's much less severe than it was before.

;)
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2012, 04:05:44 am »
Edit: Hey, my 1024th post. My first kilo-post! That's a much nerdier milestone than the 1000th post.
You spam too much. ;)

EDIT: And holy crap, you even outspammed me! I must immediately go posting everywhere! Thinking about it, I should've made this a new post.

Okay, sorry >_< Being bored at work isn't good for my "intelligent-poasting" abilities.


I've read the entire thread, and even though the mockups look nice, there's only one thing I really took away with me from this thread: Cut away a bunch of zeroes, boys! There's no reason to have 9k health at level one. 40-50 is more than enough. Or if you want a round, nice number, 100. But that's pushing it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 04:19:36 am by Moonshine Fox »
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2012, 06:07:56 am »
Yeah the value hyperinflation is an issue i hope will get squashed despite *cough* obvious doubts *cough* about there being a good reason to do that besides visual flow of the hud..

I can't even see what about a health of 40 would give us trouble with floating points, so enemies at tier 1 do 1-3 damage at the beginning - no problem (with a weighted chance 70% -> 1dmg || 20% -> 2dmg || 10% -> 3dmg). I think the actual problem is that because there is currently no linear progression of an XP level (the tier steps are more like exponentially, feels that way anyway) we would grow slower in health than the challenges grow and tiers would need to be assigned level ranges... and rebalanced from scratch.

Still not entirely sure why there isn't an XP level-up system because that would solve the value hyperinflation and some progression issues but apparently this is not supposed to be that kind of game. Although I don't really understand why.... The way it is now it essentially screams for an level-up xp system on top of the tier system.. killing random smaller enemies is still more or less useless unless they are really in the way.

My only fear is really that there is no addicting hook to the game once you seen all monsters and missions. Growing in spell power alone doesn't really do it for me, particularly if fireball 2 looks like fireball 1 for example. And missions will have to repeat at some point. Thats usually when the loot and level up system kicks in and allows for gameplay beyond the .. basic gameplay. Its gonna be curios to see where the game heads regarding that.. one simply can't judge it yet, which makes me worry. :)


Trailed badly off-topic there
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2012, 06:43:17 am »
You did indeed trail off there :D I'm just concerned that insane numbers really don't add anything but confusion. When you start a game you're used to having low health and damage. Having 6600 HP (instead of say, 66) and 2200 damage (instead of say 22) is just wierd.

Did Chris explain this somewhere and I missed the rise for the inflated numbers? Because it can't be for granularity? It can't need to be THAT granular.
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Offline x4000

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2012, 08:14:02 am »
Guys -- there's no value hyperinflation, I promise. There's also no "level 1." Its not "you start with 9k health." It's "you always have 9k health." Vitality stones and enchants can increase your working max health, but your baseline value never goes up. This isn't an RPG.

Having enemies do really coarse values of damage (1-3 damage) really is something that I run screaming from. Maybe it's just too many years as a strategy game designer, but to me that says "all enemies do the same damage!" There's no nuance there whatsoever. Anything small hits for 1, anything larger hits for 3. Yawn.

Now we hit tier 2. Those guys do 1.5x as much damage right now. Except wait -- we can't do that with small numbers! With larger integers you lose some very minor precision but it's negligible. Even going into the hundreds loses a lot of this, unless one goes to floating point.

But wait, there's more! What about math from an enchant that reduces my health by 80%? What about buffs that increase enemy power in a certain area (like windstorms). What about weak spots? All of those involve multiplicative math. All of those don't work at any integer scale smaller than what we have now with precision enough that people won't complain.

In other words, we have well reasoned reasons for using the scale we do, and I'm not remotely convinced to change it at this point. The argument for changing it seems to be based on a general belief that large numbers make it hard to do fast math and therefore make a bunch of predictions based on looking at the HUD. And that's true. But spending that much time staring at the HUD to do the calculations is beside the point; that's not intended to be part of the main flow of general gameplay. If you meet a never-before-seen monster and have lowish health and want to be sure, by all means break out your calculator. But as a general rule, just shrinking the scale of the health and attack values would destroy not just balance but also the ability to have rebuffs or non-whole-number buffs. And given the fracas when the tier scaling was 2x instead of 1.5x... I don't think anyone wants that.

For mana, that's already floating point and we could easily lose a zero, actually. It's not synced in mp, even. My view has been that its preferable to have health and mp on roughly the same scale, but if folks feel strongly against that one could actually be changed without really affecting anything except what you see on the screen.

For that matter, for display purposes if people just want to see rounded health and damage values that are divided by 100... that could also be arranged. It would need to be ceil on damage and floor on health, though. Maybe shown with decimals when the numbers are suitably small. Because even just changing the display on that on means that if you think you have 9 health, but you really have 907 health... and you think an enemy does 9 damage but it really does 901 damage or 944 damage... confusion is inevitable, because we'd have hidden important details from you, giving you a false sense of knowing what was going on.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: On the matter of the health/mana, it's display and why I don't like it
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2012, 10:56:37 am »
Personally I think having player base health be 1000 (and the tankier characters get more than that, the squishy ones less) would feel a little more "comfortable" to play with.  Is the granularity difference between 9000 and 1000 really that big?
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