Ok, so, is there some sort of magic secret to the bloody wind shelter missions?

[Misery]

Yeah....... wondering just how in the funky hell these are to be done.

Even without the bosses...... still utterly impossible.

Why?

Well, the part where the game spawns 30 enemies on the screen RIGHT AROUND THE START POINT every freaking time is a bit of an issue (the game does seem to have a tendancy to do this.   OFTEN.  There really, really needs to be a radius around the spawn point in which no enemy can spawn.)

But mostly, it's that there's no way around anything in many situations.

Currently, I'm in one of those awful forest tiles with the #%(&-ing eagles (which all need to be melted.  Badly.) and the endless espers.   Since there's barely room to move with the floating islands EVERYWHERE, it's very, VERY hard to dodge ANYTHING, particularly since the esper's spread shots dont have enough room between them for you to not get hit;  they may as well be firing a single monstrous bolt at you.  Even a tier 4 spell doesnt do enough damage to anything to kill it fast enough so that 30 more enemies dont find you (or so the accursed eagles dont randomly ram you out of nowhere).

And if I die ONCE........ just...... ONCE...... I may as well give up, because hey, stupid ghost.   

The idea, as I understand it, is to sneak by the enemy and reach the shelter.   This is a little hard to do when there literally isnt enough room to avoid the super-fast projectiles spat out by all of the damn ice espers (or the fire ones, but the ice ones are the worst) and those horrible eagles can smack you from nowhere without really giving anything near enough time to react (this again is because my monitor is way too small).

So, I cant sneak..... there's WAY too many enemies to possibly do that;  the only way through would be to kill nearly all of them..... but I cant do enough damage to actually make that viable.   With tier 4 spells.

So........ any ideas, here?


And I havent even run into the mysterious microbosses yet.   This is bloody impossible WITHOUT them, let alone with them. 

Really hate these forest areas.  Usually I just dont enter them....


The ONLY idea I've had is to take a character, get 200 damn upgrade stones, put ALL of them into health, and hope to dash through without dying.   Buuuuuut....... the slightest mistake, like getting caught on an enemy, thus causing health to rapidly drain...... and that's a big amount of time just wasted, and yet another idiotic ghost.


Maybe I'm missing something, but these STILL dont seem balanced at all.     For now, I'm just gonna do the one and only thing I've found that works:  Drop the difficulty to zero and just get rid of the idiotic mission so I dont have to repeat it 200 times, and then put the difficulty back where it should be.


EDIT:

Ok, I WAS missing something.

....THAT wasnt even the bloody mission area!   Just the first "screen" of the dungeon map that CONTAINS the mission entrance!   

So...... the problem is the sheer difficulty of wind areas in general?    All I know, is I never even saw the mission entrance when doing it on the usual difficulty;  I couldnt get past the hailstorm of fat projectiles flying all over, and couldnt kill anything.   I suppose it's still a problem with the mission though, since you HAVE to go through it to REACH the mission, and there's no circumstances where it will never be windy on the way......

Ah geez, I dont even know anymore.   All I know, is the goal is "reach shelter".   But there's just no viable way past the first couple of screens or so (and the mission entrance turned out to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy at the end of that long first section)


Edit again:

Ok, looking into this further, the problem seems to be the way the game is spawning enemies.   When I DID go into the mission area, even in there, I'd enter the building or whatever it is that sends you to the mission, walk to the right to go to the first section, and I spawn in that section...... and there's a blob of enemies ALL on that one screen.   2 of them spawned literally directly above my character, 4 others a short distance off, and then 2 bats further than that.     And it's not like it's spawning blobs of foes all over the current area;  this seems to ONLY happen in the section where you spawn.  I know there's the invincibility you get before you move, in a new area, to deal with potential things that might be sitting there, but..... I could wait all I want, and those things arent going to move in such a way that gives me even a slight chance of getting through without getting wrecked.   Again, I havent even reached the points with the microbosses yet.

I remember the game doing this multiple times when I was trying to do the JtP missions as well.


Editing yet again:    I didn't notice it before, but...... one of the espers it kept spawning on top of me actually WAS one of the microbosses.    Trying to move, then, resulted in instant death.   This was after sitting and waiting for some time for it to move away.

[bvchaosinc]

High HP char, any fast firing knock back spell, chants: feather weight, acid gills, less mana usage, faster spell fire, and both movement spells.

The spell is your leaf blower, damage on it doesn't matter just use it push baddies away. use RtL and dash to clear baddies that can't be knocked back and never stop running.  Between feather weight and acid gills you only need to look out for magma.  With this you can make the run threw about any surface environment,  However if you got a bunch of shades built up you might still be doomed.       

[Terraziel]

Personally, I suggest using a High Health Character with a good Projectile speed enchant and simply spamming teleport if anything blocks your path.

[Professor Paul1290]

I usually remember to bring along SplashBack, Shield, and Teleport. Maybe I'll throw in Storm Fist as well if I need a quick dodge.

Teleport gets to cover a lot of ground pretty fast without as much of the damage risk of Storm Dash, though you're sort of at the mercy of where its projectile lands. Just remember it does follow walls somewhat.

I usually use SplashBack when I get surrounded as it gets me a bit of breathing room, then maybe try to dodge and use Teleport to distance myself from the clump. I tend not to use Storm Dash for evasion here as it has the risk of increased damage, so Storm Fist and Shield get used more.

[nanostrike]

Transmogrify to Bat -> Fly through the area.

It feels cheap, but the areas are so frustrating to go through that I don't feel too bad.

[Misery]

Transmogrify to Bat -> Fly through the area.

It feels cheap, but the areas are so frustrating to go through that I don't feel too bad.

Tried that.   There's not enough room, even with a tiny hitbox like that, to pass the projectile storms when the enemies end up in that big clump like that.     

High HP char, any fast firing knock back spell, chants: feather weight, acid gills, less mana usage, faster spell fire, and both movement spells.

The spell is your leaf blower, damage on it doesn't matter just use it push baddies away. use RtL and dash to clear baddies that can't be knocked back and never stop running.  Between feather weight and acid gills you only need to look out for magma.  With this you can make the run threw about any surface environment,  However if you got a bunch of shades built up you might still be doomed.       

I tried the "never stop running" bit.    Died to eagles, or to suddenly slamming into a damn esper.

As for the high-health bit......  while I can appreciate the idea of having different specialized characters for different tasks, the one thing I *dont* want to do is be FORCED to make one to get through any given area.   Because that, to me, is grinding, and there is absolutely NOTHING I loathe more in all of gaming than the concept of grinding.



Mostly, I'm thinking that if the damn things would stop spawning all in a heap like that in front of the entrance to each area, this WOULD be doable and at the difficulty that it SHOULD be.

[Coppermantis]

Going to agree--If the enemies were disallowed from spawning in an area around the entrance, it would make certain situations less impossible. Even using the temp. invincibility can take ages waiting for the mobs to clear away.

[khadgar]

Here's a fun fact: wind shelter missions used to have just 1 boss, a "miniboss' as it was known. A miniboss is one of the boss-only monsters, like the dragon or the giant amoeba. Sometime right around 1.000, though I don't remember when, they changed it to be 3 microbosses. This change made it so very very very much harder for me to beat. I mean, fighting enemies 2 levels higher than you is one thing, but having 3 bosses barreling down on you is another. It took me about 55 attempts before I was able to complete  my first windshelter mission, dying on the last screen so many times.

Over time, I've gotten better at them, but a large part of it, to me, is just luck. Which room spawned for you. If that's that weird S-bend one, just restart. If it's the one that has a high road and a low road, well then GG, you can storm dash across in about 3 seconds. If it's that large hill room where there is only about a humanoid-high clearance between the top of the hill and the top of the invisible wall at the top of the screen, just restart.

Shield spells help a lot, but they shouldn't be as necessary as I feel they are to get through this without a beefy tank character.

[nanostrike]

Yeah, if they spawn right where you come into the screen, it can be almost impossible.

What I usually do is get one of the high-HP robots, max his HP via upgrades, then transmogrify to bat and just avoid everything.  Gotta be VERY careful with the Storm Dash, because it makes you take double damage.  All-in-all, I'd say these missions need some adjusting.  It's bad enough to have to deal with the wind and high-tier bosses, but the constantly spawning enemies makes it ridiculous.

[zebramatt]

I realise that much of the above are just general complaints about monster spawning rate/type/positions which are simply exemplified by the nature of windstorms - and thus would be relatively trivial to alleviate with just a little tweaking - but just in case there's any scope for a different design approach to windstorms altogether:

Let's say they don't buff monsters. Let's say, instead, they actually make the monsters weaker. Now, hear me out. Let's say they also, in addition to making it harder to move about and whatnot, hurt you over time. (It's an established mechanic, sure,  in water or hot or cold environments - but the physical restrictions it imposes are variant enough, I think.) Finally, let's say monsters spawn in greater numbers, and you can't warp anywhere.

Then what you've got is an environmental effect which doesn't just ROLFSTOMP you into the ground but actually encourages you to fight a lot of, albeit weaker, enemies in order to maintain your health - i.e. it's a lot more interesting.

Thoughts?

[Misery]

I realise that much of the above are just general complaints about monster spawning rate/type/positions which are simply exemplified by the nature of windstorms - and thus would be relatively trivial to alleviate with just a little tweaking - but just in case there's any scope for a different design approach to windstorms altogether:

Let's say they don't buff monsters. Let's say, instead, they actually make the monsters weaker. Now, hear me out. Let's say they also, in addition to making it harder to move about and whatnot, hurt you over time. (It's an established mechanic, sure,  in water or hot or cold environments - but the physical restrictions it imposes are variant enough, I think.) Finally, let's say monsters spawn in greater numbers, and you can't warp anywhere.

Then what you've got is an environmental effect which doesn't just ROLFSTOMP you into the ground but actually encourages you to fight a lot of, albeit weaker, enemies in order to maintain your health - i.e. a lot more interesting.

Thoughts?

Ooh, I like this idea.   

It'd also just make more logical sense.  Currently, the rain will, say, boost the power of enemy robots that are in the area, right..... but if you've rescued and are PLAYING AS a robot, it will STILL weaken YOU.  Why doesnt it screw with all of the different monsters too?

You could also afford to actually have the bosses (or microbosses) in there to hinder the player without it causing INSTANT MURDER.

Yes, I think this is a good idea, if it's done right.

It'd be MUCH better than the current ones.  No matter what I do I have not found any way whatsoever to survive these other than dropping the difficulty..... and as someone that likes REALLY difficult games..... like bullet-hell shmups.... I just haaaaaaaaate the idea of lowering the difficulty for any reason.


The other problem is that, well, with OTHER missions, if there's a type you dont like, you dont HAVE to do it.  The game doesnt force you, and it's one of the reasons why there are so many types.  I dont like the JtP missions..... but I never have to do them.  I have all the others to pick from.

The Wind Shelters though..... you pretty much HAVE to do these.   Heck, they're very central to the entire concept of the game, which is pushing back the wind.   So it makes SENSE that you have to do these.  You NEED these structures.   

Which makes it that much worse when the mission involved is broken.

[Misery]

Dunno wether it will help or not, but I've gone and set up a Mantis thingy for this particular issue:

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7441

[zebramatt]

I put my little idea into Mantis the other day and forgot to cross post in here - apologies!

Thread: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10488.0.html

Mantis: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7405

I've also linked it to yours on Mantis.