Ocean Shallows complaints and suggestions.

[zebramatt]

To comment on a couple of things there very much in brief:

I think in general having chunk borders drawn over two axis (rather than just horizontally as now) would greatly add to a feeling of size in the world. In moderation, obviously.

As for an area of a continent being 'city' across different times, I believe Environ is actually clusters of time and space randomly chucked together by some unknown force into the 'continents' we know today. So you're not just in a city split over different times, but in a region of bits of city, bits of forest, bits of mountain, etc. I do, however, absolutely love the idea of some day visiting the exact same region in different time zones. Clearly specific regions (as opposed to types) would need to become a lot more unique than they are now for anyone to even notice, mind you.

I believe, for reasons of maintaining the optional nature of hardcore areas (or rather, to remove any feeling from those who do not venture into those regions of missing out on something) there will never be anything in them which you can't otherwise acquire elsewhere - aside from, and this could be a lot of fun, things of a purely aesthetic nature. One suggestion I had was after spawning a lava escape mission using a new guardian power, a possible enchant with completely normal enchant effects but also guaranteed to leave a harmless trail of flames in your wake wherever you go.

[x4000]

To comment on a couple of things there very much in brief:

I think in general having chunk borders drawn over two axis (rather than just horizontally as now) would greatly add to a feeling of size in the world. In moderation, obviously.

As for an area of a continent being 'city' across different times, I believe Environ is actually clusters of time and space randomly chucked together by some unknown force into the 'continents' we know today. So you're not just in a city split over different times, but in a region of bits of city, bits of forest, bits of mountain, etc. I do, however, absolutely love the idea of some day visiting the exact same region in different time zones. Clearly specific regions (as opposed to types) would need to become a lot more unique than they are now for anyone to even notice, mind you.

I believe, for reasons of maintaining the optional nature of hardcore areas (or rather, to remove any feeling from those who do not venture into those regions of missing out on something) there will never be anything in them which you can't otherwise acquire elsewhere - aside from, and this could be a lot of fun, things of a purely aesthetic nature. One suggestion I had was after spawning a lava escape mission using a new guardian power, a possible enchant with completely normal enchant effects but also guaranteed to leave a harmless trail of flames in your wake wherever you go.

Basically this is what I was going to say.  We'll have unlockables for doing things in super-dangerous areas, which give aesthetic rewards that people can lord over their friends if they wish, and which thus provide interesting goals to shoot for.  But at the same time which do not prohibit people from getting all the game content -- otherwise we can't put in some sort of mission or area that 90% of people hate, but 10% of people love.  And I love doing that sort of thing, because it allows people to play the game really differently and makes each experience more personal and unique.

Back when I was a kid, we didn't need a reward (or even a reason) to attempt some crazy challenge.   "Because it's there" was certainly the mantra of the 80s gaming.  That and "are you a bad enough dude" to do this, heh.

Last note for now: regarding the regions, each one will only ever come from a single time period, ever.  It gets too confusing otherwise, and would require a lot of engine work to make that work a different way.  Perhaps having secret pockets of something from the wrong time period in a little secret area in one region would someday happen, but the region itself would still be from one period aside from that little pocket.  Beyond that, though, I do plan to have lots of other region types from lots of other time periods.  Cities from the future are particularly high on my list, but there are many others I want to do, too.

[MaxAstro]

This already seems to be the consensus, but I will throw my hat in agreeing that the ocean shallows are ~brutally~ hard.  I had a very "ohSHI-" moment the first time I went in there.  That said, I really LOVE the ambience of the place - I like there being basically nothing above water, and I like being forced to use light spells underwater (unless you are lucky with an acid gills drop).  It felt very Minecraft-y wandering around in the deep and having to place lights and not know what would show up.  I was fighting whale spawn, and then I placed the first light that revealed an actual whale and nearly screamed in surprise.  XD

I only made it out alive because of the space jump bug in that version.  THAT said, I honestly feel that underwater that should be a feature, not a bug.  Infinite air-jumps to simulate "swimming" adds a lot to the feel of the place and to it being an entirely different playstyle from other regions.  Plus it makes no sense that characters have no idea how to swim, unless in addition to being acid the water is also hyper-oxygenated, MGS2 style.  :p

In regards to optional areas an unlockables: I feel there should be a concrete reward for the harder, optional areas.  However I agree that no game content should be completely unique to them.  I suggest "early access" - provide a mechanism for the optional areas to grant rewards that are normally not available at the current tier or continent.  Or, if you allow spells to have multiple recipes, you could create "shortcut recipes".  Like say a certain spell has a fairly expensive craft recipe, or an alternate very simple one - but the simple one requires an item only found deep in the lava flats.

You could also do things like have stash rooms in the ocean rarely seed "red enchant containers" that always grant an instant enchant instead of having to collect one container at a time, or that drop rare enchants like lieutenants do.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

[Martyn van Buren]

I agree about rewards for challenge areas; it's not so much that you deserve something for getting into them as that it's more interesting if there's somewhere particular you want to get? Early-access might be good, or perhaps extra secret missions?

[x4000]

Yeah, I think it's not so much about exclusive access to something, as it is about making it a way to express your own preferences and thus affect the world around you.  IE, when you play a lot of lava escape missions you can unlock them on the world map.  But that can be taken further, and made so that you get earlier access to triple jump, or something.  Not so much for right now, but longer term that would be good.

[Nypyren]

If all of the "useful" unlockables are moved elsewhere, I probably won't play in the oceans anymore.  It seems like the game is fairly utilitarian - the only reason why there's a bajillion houses is in case you need them, not so you are forced to go after them.  I am also utilitarian - I will totally ignore parts of the game that don't directly benefit me.

Other than the weird bugs I've had in the oceans (incredibly hyperactive whale respawn in boss rooms and broken chunk connectivity) I don't really mind the ocean that much.  I can deal with minor annoyances like fast enemies, slow movement, and crate riding if there's something worthy to gain.  But if there's nothing important to do there, what's the point?

[freykin]

Wanted to say since .908, or possibly .906 (forget which one I went oceaneering in again), the ocean has felt much much better balance wise. It's still more dangerous than everywhere else for me, but with some good planning and preparation, I have made progress in it beyond jumping in and 30 seconds later scrambling for that rare warp out scroll. I've now made it to a boss room in one of the dungeons, and while I can't quite handle it just yet, I can tell that with tiering up a spell or two and grabbing some slightly better enchants I can probably take down that boss for the first time . This is on skilled difficulty, which also all around feels like a solid challenge to me now, not too hard, not too easy.