Musings: Alternate progression mechanics.

[Bluddy]

What do you guys think of what I said in my recent mantis rant about JtP: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7745

"BTW I like the *concept* of the JtP mission. It's cool to be able to destroy any monster with one hit. Wouldn't it be cool to have a chunk type where there's some kind of magic device that allows for that? This really is the way that I'd like to see missions go. You encounter a chunk type that's a JtP chunk. JtP effects are in effect. Dying takes you back to the left of the chunk where the spawn magic point is. Entering the chunk from the right warps you to the left of it (since the missions are only one way). Now you can choose: do I want to try this mission? Maybe I just want to play around in this mode. You can attempt the mission/quest at will. If you finish the mission, you reach the right side and deactivate some of the magic. Now you can keep the chunk as a JtP chunk, but there's no goal -- you can just play around in this mode trying out different things.

When you go back to the settlement, you can check if the Illari wanted you to do this quest and if they'll reward you for it. You could have also started out with the quest and sought the chunk, but this way is more free-form.

So a uniquely designed mission, which is isolated and single purpose, has just been turned into a unique chunk with certain properties, making exploration of the world more fun. Some of these chunks can just exist as they are in JtP mode without a quest, until one is spawned back in the settlement."

[x4000]

I have to say: I really loathe quest systems, and it's one of the reasons I don't really like western RPGs.  Getting me to move that direction is going to be kind of tough.

In terms of more freeform missions with implicit goals... I'm also not fond of that.  Then we have to have some way to track active... well, quests... and other things of that nature.  Instead it's more a matter of there being various problems and there being various solutions when it comes to freeform exploration.  You don't want wind in part of the map?  Find a way to get a wind shelter in some fashion.  Later, if an NPC is unhappy?  Find something that will make him happy.  Not a literal fetch quest with one solution ideally, and not something that requires us to keep track of his unhappiness or what he wants in a central fashion (us being you the players or us the coders), but rather something that is more organic.

My feelings at the moment, anyhow.

[Kregoth]

I think this idea could tie in really well with my ARS style mechanic suggestion http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7357 The ARS mechanic has always been my favorite feature in AI War because of how it can really change up the players strategy so the idea here is that just like in AI War.

The player is capable of crafting all the basic spells currently in the game. Upon killing a lieutenant the player gets a new random tier 1 spell they can then craft and upgrade just like any other spell. This helps make defeating them a far more rewarding experience. It also helps the player open himself up to trying new strategies, because you wont always have the same spells to work with.

Obviously the game needs a lot more spells for it to work, but it would really add to the whole feeling that each new continent is a completely different experience, because the player won't always have the same spells to use. Perhaps defeating the Overlord allows you to pick one of those random spells to take with you to the next continent, allowing the player to always feel like they are becoming more powerful the longer they play, instead of just becoming more difficult.

That my 2 cents anyway, and there probably a lot more fleshing out needed for it but having it borrow a feature from AI War sounds way better then trying to make a whole new one

[khadgar]

make it so that the continent only gets harder (and more rewarding) when you say so.  Versus having to choose to do secret missions over world map missions simply to avoid CP costs.

I support this idea. I've never played AI War, though I understand the CP concept was analogous to AI Progress, or whatever it was called. The better you get, the stronger the enemy pushback is in response to that. It seems like it was a core concept of AI War, that careful balancing act of AI Progress, but it hasn't and doesn't feel like it makes sense to me, on a core level, in AVWW. It felt quite backwards actually.

I just defeated 3 bosses in a tower, an entire battlefield of enemies, and assassinated a key person. Why did the enemy get stronger? I'd hate to see how much stronger they get if I keep murdering them!

[nanostrike]

I like the idea.

Besides, it'd make a LOT more sense to have the enemies on the continent get harder after you kill a Lieutenant; you just took out of one the Overlord's personal second-in-commands!  You've gotten more of his attention!


Also the "Rescue missions in secret missions" thing is working great.  Makes it far easier to get NPCs early on.

[Misery]

I like the idea.

Besides, it'd make a LOT more sense to have the enemies on the continent get harder after you kill a Lieutenant; you just took out of one the Overlord's personal second-in-commands!  You've gotten more of his attention!


Also the "Rescue missions in secret missions" thing is working great.  Makes it far easier to get NPCs early on.

This.

That does make more sense.




Still, I like the tier system for one reason:  It keeps me from *ever* being overpowered for an area (with one exception).   One thing I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate about any game that uses RPG elements usually, is when I have to go to an area that's lower leveled than me.  I dont WANT to fight easy foes and bosses..... in gaming, I can think of few things (ok, NO things) that I find more boring.   In THIS game, the only time I've had to do that is the lieutenants, and this is because I keep forgetting to do them until Tier 5, and the lieutenant areas are ALWAYS tier 4..... right now, for me, this is the dullest part of the game.

But yeah, the challenge level would be my main concern for something like this.  I like the fact that, say, bats sorta level up WITH you as you go along.  They're always capable of causing some trouble.  I'd really rather not ever reach a point when I've got some baddies on the screen, but I dont even really have to focus on them at all because their threat level is just that low.  The tier system keeping things at least somewhat equalized means there's genuine threat ALL THE TIME (again, aside from the lieutenants at tier 5 bit, and of course this is also still dependant on difficulty level), and it also means that ASIDE from the lieutenants I never have to hit up a boring area, period.



Also, as Nanostrike says, the continent "levelling up" upon a leiutenant's defeat does make sense.... I can just imagine the Overlord getting angrier and angrier each time and sending out more and more monsters in response to people actually daring to fight back against him.  That idea I definitely like.

[Martyn van Buren]

Sounds very cool.  That said I feel like it would be important to have the world change in some other ways as you move through lieutenants; monsters migrating more, storm clouds gathering around the overlord's keep, new kinds of traps appearing.  I'm not sure; but I think it would help if tiers felt like they were qualitatively different as well as a numbers game.

[freykin]

I like the OP idea, sounds great to me. That way it isn't 3 lieutenants in a row followed by an overlord, it's more spread out.

[mrhanman]

I'm pretty excited about this idea.  Previously, big changes like this scared the hell out of me because I thought the game I had fallen in love with might die.  Now, I trust y'all to do what's best, because it always turns out to make the game even more awesome! 

[The Wuggly Ump]

I really, really like this idea. Sounds much better; less frustration from avoiding CP, and less boredom from four boss dungeons in a row.

[Misery]

I'm pretty excited about this idea.  Previously, big changes like this scared the hell out of me because I thought the game I had fallen in love with might die.  Now, I trust y'all to do what's best, because it always turns out to make the game even more awesome! 

Aye, I'd thought the same thing, but every update so far has just been better and better, so my idea of that changed really fast, haha.

The idea of having a leiutenant as the boss of a given tier sounds good.

[Dizzard]

I like the idea of in rare occurences the lieutenant turns out to be a big wuss and begs for his life.

In general I would like to get the sense on a macro level that the lieutenant and overlord are actively doing something. (like sending monster mobs to attack the town, deteriorating the quality of some regions in some way, getting ambushed by their goons and basically giving you the finger every once in a while.)

In the game I'm playing right now I'm tier 2 and they might as well not exist, they're nicely tucked away under some windstorms. There's been no threats, no introduction, no "Mess with me and you'll regret it muhahahaha" moments.

It's all a bit quiet really.

So having Lieutenants start appearing at tier 2 is a great move. 

[Huaojozu]

I support pretty much everything suggested in this thread but mainly these 3 points:
 
1) The OP. Gives a reason for the difficulty spike, allows you to take as long as you want, improves pacing and in general makes sense.
2) Different lieutenant behaviour. Everything that adds to diversity is great. One could even summon all the ghosts left on the continent by you. Would need to be balanced in some way though. Perhaps that may be better suited for the Overlord.
3) Unique spells as rewards for defeating lieutenants ARS style. I feel like AI War proved the concept enough to be used here. You start with your basic spells (more than the triangle in AI War) and get to unlock unique ones (that you can't get elsewhere) by defeating lieutenants. These would of course need to be not only somewhat stronger than the basic ones (as in AI War, 30 or per cent seems nice) but also somewhat situational so that you still can't replace the basic ones with the unlocked unique completely. You may or may not give the player a choice of color for the unlocked spell.

[Jerebaldo1]

I too support this change to progression; it's why I've just been meandering around all this time on my first continent only doing secret missions

[Ontogenesis]

+ 1 to this suggestion. It did feel like you were being punished for doing missions. This would still work as you wouldn't be able to become too overpowered as Tier orbs wouldn't be available.