Author Topic: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)  (Read 7067 times)

Offline nanostrike

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2012, 11:35:42 pm »
Same deal with enemies: almost no enemies (actually literally none that I can think of at the moment) damage background objects.

If I recall, Dwarf Skelebots hit background objects with their explosion attacks.

The big issue with the barrels was that at point-blank range, it hits you with almost all of it's mini-projectiles.

Offline Nanashi

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2012, 01:40:53 am »
Firstly, crashed landspeeder robots fire mini enemies that explode, and those explosions do damage background objects. Secondly, insta-gibbing is not unique to them. Dark octopi fire black projectile chaos canisters (which blend in nicely with darkness) that are usually somewhat easily avoided unless you fall onto an octopus in the dark - but if one touches you, it'll explode and trigger 16 or so shrapnel bits that will instantly gib you as well.  Every single one of my deaths has been due to shrapnel-based gibs.

As far as I've seen from the feedback of others though, stupid instant deaths are actually intentionally part of the game design and they don't really matter. As an unintended side-effect of random deaths - I've stopped playing AVWW as it feels like an exercise in futility. Character death doesn't actually mean anything as individual characters don't grow with use - There's little incentive to keep players alive except to keep scaling some arbitrary world tier level - Continent 5 doesn't feel any different from Continent 4, except it has larger numbers and less of a feeling of gratuitous accomplishment (which is frankly the reason why I do anything at all). As far as character development goes, there's little of a long-term strategy and rather a lot of short-term tactics.

Rebuilding on every single continent just feels like starting a new house/city in SimCity or the Sims, except those games gave you the option *not* to, but AVWW has no horizontal progression - so if you don't strive to defeat the overlord, there's nothing much to do. I'd compare it to a Civ, or Master of Magic, but it's not quite the same feeling.

I personally find that dying adds nothing to the game except the minor frustration of clicking the reroll button (and if they limited respawns, I'd just suicide until I got a character I wanted to play, making it even more annoying). The game even encourages you not to develop any attachment to your main character whatever - they're just transient hosts for your glyph parasite.

The other issue is that I've been playing TSW and GW2 comes out soon - both have skill systems (similar to GW) that actually encourage build diversity through experimentation rather than randomness. I thrive off that kind of thing.

I could probably glean a sense of accomplishment in AVWW from turning up difficulty to masochistic settings and then attacking any suggestions that could potentially harm the artificial difficulty of the game (and completely ignore the purpose of difficulty settings), but I think I'm too haggard for a good old-fashioned penis-sneering competition these days.  (Sorry, that paragraph is rather passive-aggressive, but I want it for catharsis.)

Fortunately, AVWW has been worth every cent I spent on it, so I'm satisfied.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2012, 02:33:31 am »
Firstly, crashed landspeeder robots fire mini enemies that explode, and those explosions do damage background objects. Secondly, insta-gibbing is not unique to them. Dark octopi fire black projectile chaos canisters (which blend in nicely with darkness) that are usually somewhat easily avoided unless you fall onto an octopus in the dark - but if one touches you, it'll explode and trigger 16 or so shrapnel bits that will instantly gib you as well.  Every single one of my deaths has been due to shrapnel-based gibs.

As far as I've seen from the feedback of others though, stupid instant deaths are actually intentionally part of the game design and they don't really matter. As an unintended side-effect of random deaths - I've stopped playing AVWW as it feels like an exercise in futility. Character death doesn't actually mean anything as individual characters don't grow with use - There's little incentive to keep players alive except to keep scaling some arbitrary world tier level - Continent 5 doesn't feel any different from Continent 4, except it has larger numbers and less of a feeling of gratuitous accomplishment (which is frankly the reason why I do anything at all). As far as character development goes, there's little of a long-term strategy and rather a lot of short-term tactics.

Rebuilding on every single continent just feels like starting a new house/city in SimCity or the Sims, except those games gave you the option *not* to, but AVWW has no horizontal progression - so if you don't strive to defeat the overlord, there's nothing much to do. I'd compare it to a Civ, or Master of Magic, but it's not quite the same feeling.

I personally find that dying adds nothing to the game except the minor frustration of clicking the reroll button (and if they limited respawns, I'd just suicide until I got a character I wanted to play, making it even more annoying). The game even encourages you not to develop any attachment to your main character whatever - they're just transient hosts for your glyph parasite.

The other issue is that I've been playing TSW and GW2 comes out soon - both have skill systems (similar to GW) that actually encourage build diversity through experimentation rather than randomness. I thrive off that kind of thing.

I could probably glean a sense of accomplishment in AVWW from turning up difficulty to masochistic settings and then attacking any suggestions that could potentially harm the artificial difficulty of the game (and completely ignore the purpose of difficulty settings), but I think I'm too haggard for a good old-fashioned penis-sneering competition these days.  (Sorry, that paragraph is rather passive-aggressive, but I want it for catharsis.)

Fortunately, AVWW has been worth every cent I spent on it, so I'm satisfied.


Considering how ridiculously repetetive MMOs are (and I've played damn near all of them at some point, and been in a great, great many betas.... I've ALOT of free time), I have a very, very hard time considering a game like this to be repetetive in comparison.   That being said though..... pretty much ALL games are, in some way.   I like this one though because it lets *me* choose my path through it, and do things how I want to..... so many games do not do this. 

Random deaths though..... I've been playing this game *alot* since it came out, as in, more than any other game (and again.... LOTS of free time, so LOTS of gaming time), and I dont think I've *ever* had a single death that I thought was random.  Every single time, I knew what killed me, and I knew why and how, and I knew there was something I could have done to avoid it (and I mean something that does NOT involve the shields).  And I'm playing on Master Hero & TCO.   Any death that was "stupid" was due to my OWN stupidity.   Die to shrapnel burst?  Well, maybe I shouldnt have gotten hit by it (and shrapnel-canister projectiles tend to be slow-as-dirt to begin with...).   Die to lava?  Well, perhaps I should have jumped OVER the lava, not in it.  Die to a boss?  Maybe I should have fought and dodged better.   The only enemy in the ENTIRE GAME.... and I do mean the ONLY one.... that I honestly think is a little "cheap", is the damn Eagles.   And even then, they're not THAT bad.   Mostly they just irritate me.

That being said though..... I think the game honestly loses something at lower difficulties.  All those spells, for instance..... there's so many of them, a huge variety..... but on most difficulty settings, you simply dont need them.  Not until I got to MH difficulty did I start finding good reasons to experiment with spells beyond the most commonly used ones (and on TCO they become ESSENTIAL).  The game does encourage "build diversity" at this point (overall though, not really between individual characters), but it DOESNT at lower difficulties.   Not even remotely.   Playing on Hero or lower?  Give me Ball Lightning, and..... Ball Lightning, and I can probably kill anything without too much trouble.   And in all honesty, that's just not all that much fun.

I'll agree though that dying has no particular consequence right now (particularly with ghosts being stupid easy to defeat), but that one's a known issue, and pretty sure the devs have said they have things in mind for it.   .....though, coming from playing as many MMOs as I have.... this game has more consequence than most of those do these days.   Possibly though, that's a good thing (ah, the days of EQ's old corpse-runs....).   



Also the Octopi had their Insanity canisters rather drastically nerfed.   Frankly, the things arent much threat anymore......   Though they were so dirt slow that I'm not sure how much threat they were to begin with.

Offline Nanashi

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2012, 10:49:36 am »
The octopi were just one example, I hadn't realised they'd been fixed. Arcen has been pretty on the ball with updates (though IMO I'd just have reduced the damage drastically and added a nasty status ailment like blindness - making your screen incredibly dark despite any light sources - or burning, thus keeping a good incentive to avoid the shrapnel). There's other ways to put pressure onto a character that don't involve instant death, and status ailments are great at it.

AVWW is still one of the better games I've played this year, and the new changes are IMO rather good. I think the only reason I don't feel involved now is because characters don't develop, only enchantments do. Citybuilding is a bit linear and I'd like to see more choices in the game and permanent choices in developing a character. It's not quite like X-Com, where I had a base of people to choose from with different specialties - current racial bonuses are just "take it or leave it". I still remember Master of Magic or Heroes of Might and Magic where heroes developed their own skill-sets after using them, and I still remember half the heroes for an 18-year-old game because of this (B'shan the Dervish!). I'm unhappy with the 2 static random modifiers and stat variation that distinguishes one glyphbearer from the next, and there's no reward for keeping a character alive.

I believe survival should be rewarded. Survivors should become better at surviving and develop with experience, even if it's not level-based progression (which is a worse cliche, anyway).

Attachment in RPGs is not a bad thing, even with hardcore modes enabled - after all, attachment is what keeps us bound to the world, otherwise we'd all transcend and become Buddha or something.

Offline LayZboy

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2012, 11:13:25 am »
Not until I got to MH difficulty did I start finding good reasons to experiment with spells beyond the most commonly used ones (and on TCO they become ESSENTIAL).

I never found a reason to change spells that much on master hero or Chosen, since everything still dies in either 1 or 2 hits anyway. The only difference between the two is Chosen monsters hit harder.

But regardless I still use Fireball and Energy Orb all the time, no matter the difficulty.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2012, 11:16:00 am »
I'm a big fan of the leafy whip myself. Mostly due to it's ridiculus damage and that I have a +40% earth power enchant. Hello oneshot everything. (almost)
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Nanashi

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2012, 12:26:30 pm »
It's still not quite to my idea of how melee should be. My idea of the model candidate for projectile based platformers with melee for me is actually a doujin game - takkoman. (Zero in MMX doesn't have to deal with quite as many projectiles)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLgaZ9SL7pI&feature=relmfu

Maybe someday, melee combat in AVWW will be half as exciting (Different styles of game though. Grazing is really fun).

Offline khadgar

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2012, 12:52:27 pm »
I have a quick theory on how to make barrels explode in a different fashion (Caveat- I haven't exploded a barrel since the change listed above went through).

Blasting out 6-12 shrapnel shards makes for a pretty explosion that increases in radius, but it means that, by necessity, to be at the epicenter upon detonation is very deadly. This makes some degree of sense on a thing like an urban crawler, which gives you time to react, but not so much on a barrel. I suggest that the barrels only fire one shrapnel shard out, in a random direction out of a 180 degree northward arc. Functionally similar to a whip spell (like the light-whip) or a roman candle. This way, the damage could be adjusted more easily, as opposed to having to deal with both single-hit cases and multi-hit cases.

Or, if this method proves to be too trivial to mitigate, give the barrels a chance to explode in this manner at a high percentage, but still allow them to explode in the the normal manner at a much lower frequency.

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2012, 05:45:35 pm »
Not until I got to MH difficulty did I start finding good reasons to experiment with spells beyond the most commonly used ones (and on TCO they become ESSENTIAL).

I never found a reason to change spells that much on master hero or Chosen, since everything still dies in either 1 or 2 hits anyway. The only difference between the two is Chosen monsters hit harder.

But regardless I still use Fireball and Energy Orb all the time, no matter the difficulty.


Different playstyles, then.   I tend to rush/charge at everything, so that's going to be part of it.   For my own playstyle, if I just fire 2 spells all that time, I'll die a whole lot (also it's dull).    I'm not very patient.


As for the video there of this "Takkoman"..... hmmm..... definitely different tastes.  I agree AVWW's doesnt "feel" like melee...... it's not like a beat-em-up or something.... but that game there is too button-mashy for my tastes (though I still like games to an extent like that even if they arent quite perfect).   I almost think AVWW's close-range spells shouldnt be CALLED "melee", if only to stop people complaining about it.   "But this isnt melee!  I'm not hitting them with a sword/fist/foot/spear/knife!" and such like that, I seem to see that particular comment alot (in places other than here).

As for "attachment"..... eh, to each their own.   I'm used to Roguelikes (and nearly never play normal RPGs due to finding them boring), so I'm used to throwaway characters and hyper-difficult everything.  It was something I'd expected out of this game, due to all of the random-generation, and all of that;  usually goes along with that type of game.   In all honesty, I'd rather this game didn't get obsessive over character development, just because I do tend to associate that with dull JRPGs and such.   I actively seek out games that DONT bombard me with story crap, and this game fit that bill perfectly;  I can happily ignore all that stuff with this one, which is refreshing as heck.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2012, 06:18:12 pm »
On a sidenote, the shrapnels seem to be working better in this version.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2012, 06:44:19 pm »
Oh, how courteous of the barrel to leave you with 20 hp!  I hope you had already found some spare underpants in those stash rooms.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2012, 06:46:42 pm »
Oh, how courteous of the barrel to leave you with 20 hp!  I hope you had already found some spare underpants in those stash rooms.
20 POINT 5!
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline SerratedSabre

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Major source of "Not fun!" (Instadeath)
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2012, 07:37:51 pm »
Oh, how courteous of the barrel to leave you with 20 hp!  I hope you had already found some spare underpants in those stash rooms.
That sounds like a good idea for a mood item.

Got Mood Gift - Clean Pants