Author Topic: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.  (Read 36983 times)

Offline Aklyon

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,089
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2012, 08:18:37 pm »
Will there be new music?

ALso, doesn't someone around here have a save file from alpha or something like that? I wonder what the changes will have upon it.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2012, 08:24:49 pm »
Will there be new music?

Probably not any, no.  Pablo's stretched pretty thin already between Ancient Shadows and Shattered Haven, both of which have massive soundtracks.  If he has a chance I know he wants to remaster the soundtrack for AVWW, though.  Whether or not that is in time for the release I'm not sure.

ALso, doesn't someone around here have a save file from alpha or something like that? I wonder what the changes will have upon it.

Given that we're splitting into two very distinct modes, I can say that the new modes will not be backwards-compatible with any of the existing world files.  You'll keep being able to play your existing world files in the existing mode, but the new mode won't support them at all.  It's such an apples-to-oranges situation that they just wouldn't work together in any way at all.  Not remotely.  It's not a matter of it being too much work or whatever, there's just not the same things in the new mode that were in the old mode, and vice-versa.  It would be like trying to carry a savestate from Mario 1 into Sonic 2 or something, it just doesn't work on any level.   :P
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline MouldyK

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2012, 08:36:15 pm »
Play Borderlands 2 for a week...attend Eurogamer Expo and play some cool games...come back to see Chris has turned more into Peter Molyneux than before. :P

Which is no way in any sense bad. I love seeing people generally happy about their things and how they want to share it with others.


Though, after playing Borderlands 2, I must ask you something: Are spells and that still as random as before? I thought that way a part which was generally getting better and that I liked.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2012, 08:43:20 pm »
Play Borderlands 2 for a week...attend Eurogamer Expo and play some cool games...come back to see Chris has turned more into Peter Molyneux than before. :P

Which is no way in any sense bad. I love seeing people generally happy about their things and how they want to share it with others.

Ehh... Peter M is really off the deep end in a lot of what he says.  I don't think anything I say is remotely so implausible as most of what he says.  Sometimes things don't work out the way that I hope, but we actually have delivered on goals many times before, and we try to keep our promises within what we think is reasonable.  Sometimes people's expectations run well ahead of what we've been saying, but still.

Though, after playing Borderlands 2, I must ask you something: Are spells and that still as random as before? I thought that way a part which was generally getting better and that I liked.

I knew someone was going to ask me about that.  That's something I can't really talk about right now, except to say the following:
- opportunities for meaningful character customization are increased in the new mode.
- there's tons of randomization still in the new mode, and that also applies to what sort of spells you'll be gaining access to at what times.
- however, the loot/inventory/leveling/spells/etc subsystems are unrecognizable from what they were before.  Sonic 2 and Mario 1.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline MouldyK

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2012, 08:53:09 pm »
Yeah, but the passion of Pater is always something to be amazed about. He reminds me of me when I have thoughts on things: Big dreams, not enough time/money/possibility to implement. It's nice you deliver on your ideas though!


Loving the idea of added customization and can't wait to hear about the New AVWW when you can tell us more.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2012, 09:32:21 pm »
Yeah, that's true -- we do share the passion, at the very least. :)  Journalists at PAX East kept commenting on it, which was really surprising to me.  Aren't all indie developers this way, I thought?  But apparently not remotely, I'm learning.  It's not a value judgement, it's not even a measure of the passion felt, it's just a personality thing in terms of how it's expressed.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Oralordos

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
  • Suffering from Chronic Backstabbing Disorder
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #111 on: September 27, 2012, 09:54:45 pm »
So whats the latest wide-ranged estimate on when this free AVWW expansion is going to be out? I am starting to feel very excited!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #112 on: September 27, 2012, 10:00:04 pm »
We are hoping to have the first playable builds of this ready in early November at the moment.  It's coming along well at the moment, but there's still a lot to do and we basically have to have most of it done (aside from some of the content, but all of the subsystems/mechanics rework) for it to be ready for public consumption. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Castruccio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2012, 10:07:59 pm »
I like all of this very much and I especially like the fact that you are keeping it behind closed doors.  I know I am in the minority on this but I believe that Arcen does it's best work when you and Keith do most of the designing and leave the players out of it.   I am glad you are following your design intentions with AVWW 2.0 and Shattered Haven and leaving us to playtest Ancient Shadows--the basic mechanics for which have been established for a long while.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2012, 10:14:52 pm »
That's an interesting perspective -- I hadn't particularly thought about that.  I do think that the feedback from the players is invaluable on many phases of our projects, but for this one we're really not looking for feedback yet because we already have the feedback.  We're working based on what people have been telling us for the last two years, plus our own feelings on all of what has happened, and we just need time to get all that fully realized before anyone starts picking it apart.  It's a bit antithetical to my nature, but part of the reason all the feedback on AI War works so wonderfully well is that the generalities of that game really have been long established, as you say.

That's pretty interesting.  On brief reflection since your note, it does appear that we do better work when the original gestation period of ideas are in private, and then the later periods are what get the feedback -- once the original is solid to begin with.  Huh.  That's interesting. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2012, 02:35:07 am »
Hmm.... interesting stuff. 


The bit about enemy placement bothers me though;  it makes it sound like more pre-determined content is on the way.   I know, ALOT of games use pre-made everything instead of randomizations, and frankly, those are the games I tire of the fastest.  Even something really, really good like Super Mario World.... I'll try and give it another go every now and then, but it pretty much just cant hold my attention anymore.   I've seen all the levels before, I know how to beat them, I know where everything is going to be.... the challenge is utterly gone, and I simply cant focus on it.    The current way that indoor rooms generate already bugs me a bit;  no matter how many times rooms are added to the game, they STILL manage to repeat themselves pretty often.   I tend to completely lose that sense of exploration when in buildings;  the rooms arent what I'm exploring in those, instead, I'm actually ONLY exploring the dungeon map itself.   

Also makes me think of, say, Binding of Isaac.  Predetermined rooms (randomly chosen though) and monster placement (though the actual monsters that show up are somewhat random).  It's a randomized game, and one of my favorites, but I've hit the point where the challenge just..... vanished.   I've seen each room before, and know what to do when such-and-such room shows up with specific enemy choices.  When the room shows up again, the strategy is merely to mimic whatever I did last time.  Which.... yeah, kinda boring.   Lost interest in it, I have.

Doesnt bug me TOO much in this game, since the enemies tend to be very random, and the combat is so focused on dodging stuff.



That, and the idea of the game straying TOO far from it's original concepts (or, I should say, what I perceive it's original concepts to be) are my main concerns going into this one.   Mostly the combat; the "shoot and dodge" idea is the central thing that keeps me glued to this one.   I'll take a wild guess and say that this bit, at least, is likely to still be there.

As far as what I'm hoping to see changed, hmmm......

Number one is probably more strategic worldmap stuff.   The current version of the game never QUITE got there.   The strategic bits almost entirely consist of where/when you place shelters and buoys.   And the ideas behind the worldmap and how things connect to it are so interesting, so hoping to see that part in particular be more of what it should be.

That, and the game making the player want a wider variety of spells more.   That'd be nice too, and is another thing the current version never quite reached.   Same thing with some of the items.  There's some very interesting items in the game, but the only ones I ever actually USE are bear traps.    Stuff like the transformation items, the barrels, stuff like that.... never found a need for them.


Hopefully we'll get the announcement on what this all is sometime soon here....   cant wait to see just what you're planning.





Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2012, 02:44:32 am »
Hey, I've been out for a week (On a school trip Whitewater rafting in Oregon) and and having to catch up on a lot of stuff, but what I have seen so far (only just got back, so I haven't read many posts in detail) sounds great. My only concern is that what with all the secrecy it will generate silly amounts of hype and not be able to live up to it. I have the same concern with things like HL3 as well, to be honest.

But I really am looking forwards to this, AVWW might once again become my time sink.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Knightlord64

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2012, 08:25:24 am »
Oh wow this might actually give me a reason to get back to playing AVWW! Well is there a name for this giant overhaul or will it just be called AVWW 2.0?

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2012, 08:41:05 am »
The bit about enemy placement bothers me though;  it makes it sound like more pre-determined content is on the way.   I know, ALOT of games use pre-made everything instead of randomizations, and frankly, those are the games I tire of the fastest.  Even something really, really good like Super Mario World.... I'll try and give it another go every now and then, but it pretty much just cant hold my attention anymore.   I've seen all the levels before, I know how to beat them, I know where everything is going to be.... the challenge is utterly gone, and I simply cant focus on it.    The current way that indoor rooms generate already bugs me a bit;  no matter how many times rooms are added to the game, they STILL manage to repeat themselves pretty often.   I tend to completely lose that sense of exploration when in buildings;  the rooms arent what I'm exploring in those, instead, I'm actually ONLY exploring the dungeon map itself.

I think you'll be happy with what we're doing, but obviously we are moving a bit more in the pre-determined content path.  Not remotely as much as you seem to be worrying, but still definitely that direction; it's the only way to really have solid enemy placement and exciting encounters that actually make sense from a design point of view.  There's a fine line between being being not procedural enough (the maps in Left 4 Dead 2 come to mind for me personally) and being too procedural (current AVVW).  I say "too procedural" because it makes it so that there's not as much actual variance in combat scenarios as there could be, and it thus washes everything out and makes it more homogenous than you'd think it would be after a long time of playing.

The new conception is still very much procedural generation, but it's more towards the middle in the graph of "not procedural enough" and "too procedural."  I've seen the concept we're using in a very few other games, but I don't think anyone else has used it to the degree that we're going to.

That, and the idea of the game straying TOO far from it's original concepts (or, I should say, what I perceive it's original concepts to be) are my main concerns going into this one.   Mostly the combat; the "shoot and dodge" idea is the central thing that keeps me glued to this one.   I'll take a wild guess and say that this bit, at least, is likely to still be there.

We're going back to what we originally wanted to do, so we're straying extremely far from what AVWW currently is.  But the SHMUP stuff (shoot and dodge) is alive and well and actually being improved quite a bit.

Number one is probably more strategic worldmap stuff.   The current version of the game never QUITE got there.

That was our number one disappointment, too.  Definitely a huuuuge focus.

That, and the game making the player want a wider variety of spells more.   That'd be nice too, and is another thing the current version never quite reached.   Same thing with some of the items.  There's some very interesting items in the game, but the only ones I ever actually USE are bear traps.    Stuff like the transformation items, the barrels, stuff like that.... never found a need for them.

This was a big bugbear of mine, too.  Definitely handled differently now, and I think much better. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Just a note about what's going on with AVWW.
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2012, 08:42:57 am »
My only concern is that what with all the secrecy it will generate silly amounts of hype and not be able to live up to it. I have the same concern with things like HL3 as well, to be honest.

We're not talking about it at all outside of this one thread, and that is just to keep you guys informed.  In terms of when we actually announce this thing in the next couple of weeks, we'll be talking about anything and everything at that point -- so veil of secrecy gone at that point.  I very much share your concern.

Oh wow this might actually give me a reason to get back to playing AVWW! Well is there a name for this giant overhaul or will it just be called AVWW 2.0?

There is a name!  But I can't tell it to you yet. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!