Journey to Perfection

[keith.lamothe]

b) There will only be one such glass, and you pick it up at the start of the mission.  If you drop the glass, it breaks, so you can't swap it out in MP.  Therefore everyone is protecting one player who has the glass and is trying to make it to the end, in MP.

It's not a critical issue, but FYI this will make the mission way easier in MP if you have a decent-sized group: the others can simply clear the way while the ringglass-bearer hangs around in the staging area (or some early-on obviously-safe area in the journey chunk) and then makes their way to the switch once it is found.

[x4000]

This sounds perfect to me! These missions all had a time-sink component built into them at the beginning as far as I was concerned. Now you have moved the time-sink to the end, and only in the case of failure! All the challange seems to be preserved while leaving death as the "series of mistakes" penalties. I will now be able to leave the platform and action difficulties up high all the time, and that is awesome.

Glad you like it!  It took all of us collectively to come up with this; I certainly wouldn't have come up with this on my own any time soon.

About the heat suit immune to lava change, is that only lava escape missions? Or is that property just moved from the advanced to the basic version now?

Both the advanced and basic heatsuits will get this reduction.  It's not a huge advantage, really, because in someplace like lava flats the utahraptors will rip you apart while you're slowly climbing your way out.

[x4000]

b) There will only be one such glass, and you pick it up at the start of the mission.  If you drop the glass, it breaks, so you can't swap it out in MP.  Therefore everyone is protecting one player who has the glass and is trying to make it to the end, in MP.

It's not a critical issue, but FYI this will make the mission way easier in MP if you have a decent-sized group: the others can simply clear the way while the ringglass-bearer hangs around in the staging area (or some early-on obviously-safe area in the journey chunk) and then makes their way to the switch once it is found.

Good point.  I edited the original to just have simpler rules to implement and play by.  "If anyone takes any damage, you lose instantly."  Simple enough.

[keith.lamothe]

b) There will only be one such glass, and you pick it up at the start of the mission.  If you drop the glass, it breaks, so you can't swap it out in MP.  Therefore everyone is protecting one player who has the glass and is trying to make it to the end, in MP.

It's not a critical issue, but FYI this will make the mission way easier in MP if you have a decent-sized group: the others can simply clear the way while the ringglass-bearer hangs around in the staging area (or some early-on obviously-safe area in the journey chunk) and then makes their way to the switch once it is found.

Hmm, for that matter: what would stop someone in single player from simply not picking up the glass, clearing the chunk, going back, picking up the glass, and then going to the switch?

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, ok, if it's anyone-takes-damage that works

[Penumbra]

b) There will only be one such glass, and you pick it up at the start of the mission.  If you drop the glass, it breaks, so you can't swap it out in MP.  Therefore everyone is protecting one player who has the glass and is trying to make it to the end, in MP.

It's not a critical issue, but FYI this will make the mission way easier in MP if you have a decent-sized group: the others can simply clear the way while the ringglass-bearer hangs around in the staging area (or some early-on obviously-safe area in the journey chunk) and then makes their way to the switch once it is found.

I think this issue will come up even if everyone had a glass, since losing the glass doesn't remove that player from the mission. Now, if every monster in the perfection mission had 100x life and piercing and it was the glass thingy allowing you to one shot things, then everyone could carry one without multiplayer becoming super easy.

[x4000]

See my change above: I went the meanest way possible, which I think is appropriate: if anyone takes any damage at all, you all lose.  That's the spirit of difficulty I like, versus the sort of punitive "okay, now you also have 15 minutes of grinding to do as punishment" sort of penalizing I don't like.

I'm still a mean DM, just a certain kind of mean. 

[Penumbra]

I'm still a mean DM, just a certain kind of mean. 

Mean but fair. 

[x4000]

I'm still a mean DM, just a certain kind of mean. 

Mean but fair. 

I don't like to just outright kill players.  When I'm DMing for a boardgame or pen and paper in particular, my strategy is always this: push the party to the brink of death, and then see if they'll topple over into the abyss.  So long as they don't many any/many mistakes, they'll always win.  But I like to push that margin for error as absolutely as low as I can get it while still having the experience be fun, for something like Descent: JitD in particular.

[Martyn van Buren]

Sounds like a perfect fix to me; thanks a lot for spending the time on coming up with it!

[freykin]

I'm still a mean DM, just a certain kind of mean. 

Mean but fair. 

I don't like to just outright kill players.  When I'm DMing for a boardgame or pen and paper in particular, my strategy is always this: push the party to the brink of death, and then see if they'll topple over into the abyss.  So long as they don't many any/many mistakes, they'll always win.  But I like to push that margin for error as absolutely as low as I can get it while still having the experience be fun, for something like Descent: JitD in particular.

I'm experiencing this weekly in a friend's game of Hackmaster. It's absolutely brutal, but whenever we manage to survive and make it somewhere, the accomplishment is all that much sweeter.

[x4000]

My extra favorite thing to do is join into the tactical discussions.  Of course I don't give away my hand or any tricks I have up my sleeve, but I help with the math and the tactics and the analysis.  And most of what I say is sound, and I'm genuinely feeling like one of the adventurers.  However, I advise things as if I didn't know what was in my hand (not to make them specifically fall into traps I have in my hand, usually, but just to help them fall into it if they would have anyhow).  That's always interesting, because they know to take my tactics advice with a grain of salt, since I'm technically playing as the bad guy.  But on the other hand, a lot of the advice is really sound...

I delight in the duplicity of that, because it's so counter to the way I normally do things, I think.

[BobTheJanitor]

Reverting way back to the original topic, some comments on these missions. Now that they're doable (and I'm glad I never tried them before or I would have run out of characters in my settlement, yikes) I have been trying them every time one pops up. I have just now finally managed to finish one. There's a reason why too. To truncate a line from Batman (no not that movie, the other one), "I have given a name to my pain, and that name is Bat--" And it's not the frosty ones or the fiery ones, it's just the bog standard bats. They're so hard to see on so many of the game's backgrounds that I never notice them until they've already lost the mission for me. Argh! They're the epitome of this. (Warning, swearing. Double warning, TV Tropes link, beware of endless clicking) If they were just a bit more visible, it wouldn't be a problem. As is, the 'challenge' they provide is of the worst kind, where sudden failure can come unexpectedly and without feeling like you the player could have done anything to avoid it.

Also, I wouldn't mind if that 'knocked out' idea came back if it would just fade the screen to black and warp you back to the mission staging area. Having to hunt back out through a maze-like room with no minimap after failing one of these seems needlessly cruel. Survivor rescues could benefit from that as well. If you manage to lose the survivor early on, you still have to pointlessly crawl your way back through to the mission exit. An in-mission option to abandon the mission and instantly be warped outside would sure be nice.

[x4000]

Whew, those sound like some mantis issues to me.  I'm a little tied up with some stuff that I think is more pressing at the moment, but aside from the bat visibility issue (come on, that's the only thing they have going for them), but the other ideas are worth discussing at least.  A way to quickly exit missions you've failed I'm less sure about, but hmm.  That becomes too much of a "get out of jail free" card and breaks the sense of place in a lot of respects, I think.

What I do think would also make a good mantis idea is a "visibility enchant."  When you're wearing it, then a bright green line gets drawn from your character to the center of mass of any enemy character that is within a certain range, for instance.  That way you're not having stuff sneak up on you in the same way.

[Kregoth]

I wish I took a screenshot of this, but I am unsure if this was a bug or me just getting really really unlucky. but I entered the mission only to discover I was in a single very small room packed with about 30 monsters inside. I loosed the moment I sent out my first attack there was no way to win. The room in question was small enough to fit entirely inside the screen.

So is this a bug? or intended, and if so that is one hell of a middle finger to the player haha