Interested in being a part of a private alpha for Valley 2? Read here.

[LaughingThesaurus]

What I don't understand is how they can judge it without knowing how it actually feels. I mean I can throw critique all day at things that I haven't played, and there are certain things that you can judge without having played a game. Animation quality and graphical fidelity are things that you can judge, but not in any meaningful way without playing the game. Case in point, I played a beautiful game (Fallout 3) and hated it because of how delightfully beautiful the environment looks. Why? Because the environment hides the enemies! I can't tell you whether all is good based on looking at the game, but it seems a far bet easier to actually tell what's going on because of the more deliberate combat and slower pace. I remember enemies blending into backgrounds in Valley 1. I've probably taken thousands of damage just because I didn't see something for the split second it charged me while camouflaged.
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I'll admit I've deleted like 3 drafts of the same post because I feel like they're mean. If I'm being mean, just disregard me as an idiot. I don't want to be one of those people making stupid comments, and I'm really not trying to be.

[Mánagarmr]

I've been deleting the bad comments, though there have only been about 4.  Broken window syndrome, you know.  The good far outweigh the bad, though.  Mostly it's been a matter of "you need a million animation frames for everything."

Oh, I see.

[Professor Paul1290]

some folks expect multimillion dollar graphics from every game they see, apparently.

I think it looks fine for what it is too, but I don't think that's so much the problem as it is that there are a LOT of sidescrollers made on similar budgets to that just look better.

The thing is, most sidescroller environments with similar levels of detail are made by hand and can make a lot more assumptions about where everything is going to be. Because of that, when you have this level of detail, gamers expect everything to fit together to a degree that is hard to do if the levels are random or semi-random. Most other side-scrollers that use some form of procedural generation go with a relatively low level of detail to avoid this.

The thing is, by having this much detail in the environment along with procedurally generated levels you're going to get criticism for it, no matter how good the individual art assets look. You're not going to have that many people saying it looks good because you're up against a genre that traditionally enjoys relatively high quality art in much more static and "art friendly" conditions.
It's not fair, but that's the way it is. 


Goddamn, it just occurred to me how awfully negative this is for a come-back post.

Regardless, on a lighter note I really REALLY want to play this game. 

[x4000]

Don't sweat it, folks.  At any rate, no game escapes scathing criticism from a wide variety of people for a wide variety of reasons.  If it wasn't this, it would be something else.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Yeah that was my problem too, I felt really mean and negative =(

Well, all criticism does is make you better.

[Misery]

Thanks, Teal -- I have to say, I really needed that after Youtube commenters and just the mention of the RPS comments (which I've not read).  The art isn't mine this time, and I think it's beautiful too -- but some folks expect multimillion dollar graphics from every game they see, apparently.

Yep, and the sad thing is, there's absolutely squat you can do about it, in a general sense.

I know a few people like this.... I'll suggest to them the occaisional indie game (doesnt matter exactly what) that they might like based on their tastes, but "Why would I play that?  It looks like the SUPER NINTENDO or something!", and then I have to resist the urge to throw a chair at them.   Oh, but they'll play something that's on the level of, say, Miner Wars, since that game looks kinda like it's made of pure money.   

And some people will always, always, ALWAYS hate 2D games just because they're 2D.... that's another one that seems overly common.   It could be bloody BEAUTIFUL, but no..... it's 2D!  It's evil and stupid!  Blargh!

So freaking stupid, but..... always going to be there.   Very annoying.   PARTICULARLY on Youtube.   Dont let THOSE jerks get to you.   I swear, there are guys who just sit around, clicking random Youtube videos JUST to leave jerky, trollish comments.  Ugh.   I only put up with Youtube because the people I follow all happen to only post vids on there.   But I cant even post a basic gameplay vid of something on MY channel, with it's like, what, 250 subscribers if that, without fairly often getting some jerk coming in and making asshatty comments.  Bloody amazing, really.  In a pathetic sort of way.   And then Youtube also crashes alot.   I could probably rant about THAT for three pages.



Though, hopefully some of the derpy comments will die down once more of the graphics stuff is both finished and implemented.   *I* think it looks freaking great, to be honest.  Here I'd wondered if the "feel" of it, or the atmosphere of it, would be gone with this new one, but, that hasnt been the case.

[Aklyon]

Miner Wars could be made of money, after all its gone through, almost. Money and confusion for several years.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Wait.
What was even the nature of the stupid comments? Were they trashing the game just because it was 2d?

[Teal_Blue]

Wait.
What was even the nature of the stupid comments? Were they trashing the game just because it was 2d?

People don't bother to even play the game, don't bother to watch the video of the differences in the new game and the old game, (is a ten month old game really old?) Anyway they talk trash, it looks..., it looks like it plays..., I don't think there is anyway...

Which is all garbage and trolling in my opinion. I already have AV1 and am going to be buying AV2 because i want to support Chris and company for all the hard work they have put into this and all the garbage that i wish wasn't happening. Anyway, that is my two cents!  Anyone else want to be a fan and stand up to these trollers by putting out some positive, positive feedback? I know its cool on the forums, but we're almost family here, so its sorta like preaching to the choir, but places like RPS and YouTube are public and the best places we can defend what we feel is a very well made game that Chris and company have put a TON of hours of work into. 

Thanks for listening to me rant, it just really really bugs me what these jerko's are saying after all the effort and hard work Arcen has put into it. 

-T

[LaughingThesaurus]

Well, to be fair, you won't be buying Valley 2, because you'll already own it.
That's my favorite part of the deal. Getting a second game for free that's gonna be all awesome and retro and somehow an action turn based tactical strategy game. I never did play Actraiser.

[Professor Paul1290]

And some people will always, always, ALWAYS hate 2D games just because they're 2D.... that's another one that seems overly common.   It could be bloody BEAUTIFUL, but no..... it's 2D!  It's evil and stupid!  Blargh!

Well that's not really the problem a lot of people have. People aren't asking for expensive graphics, people are asking for something else.

The problem people have is that AVWW 2 does not look as good as other indie 2D platformers of similar budget.

Like I said earlier, sidescrollers are a genre that has traditionally enjoyed relatively high-quality artwork in presented in a very "art friendly" way. Most games that have sprites of similar size and detail tend to have static environments where everything can be put together very cohesively by hand.
This is not the case with AVWW 2, and as such it will never look as good no matter how good the individual art assets are.

Other games that have some form of random or semi-random generation avoid the problem by using lower resolution sprites and less detail.

It's not uncommon for a genre to grow up with "something" so that anyone playing those games expects that "something". If you make a game in that genre that for any reason can't as easily have that "something" then you're going to have an uphill fight ahead of you.

[Teal_Blue]

Well, to be fair, you won't be buying Valley 2, because you'll already own it.
That's my favorite part of the deal. Getting a second game for free that's gonna be all awesome and retro and somehow an action turn based tactical strategy game. I never did play Actraiser.

I do already 'own' AV1, but WILL be buying AV2, with another copy of 1, just to support Arcen. That is what i mean, and yes, it is nice to get it free, and yes that is cool. But Chris and company have put a TON of hours of work into AV1 and AV2, and I am just wanting to say thank you, in my way, by buying 'another' copy, for them doing that.
-T

[Teal_Blue]

And some people will always, always, ALWAYS hate 2D games just because they're 2D.... that's another one that seems overly common.   It could be bloody BEAUTIFUL, but no..... it's 2D!  It's evil and stupid!  Blargh!

Well that's not really the problem a lot of people have. People aren't asking for expensive graphics, people are asking for something else.

The problem people have is that AVWW 2 does not look as good as other indie 2D platformers of similar budget.

Like I said earlier, sidescrollers are a genre that has traditionally enjoyed relatively high-quality artwork in presented in a very "art friendly" way. Most games that have sprites of similar size and detail tend to have static environments where everything can be put together very cohesively by hand.
This is not the case with AVWW 2, and as such it will never look as good no matter how good the individual art assets are.

Other games that have some form of random or semi-random generation avoid the problem by using lower resolution sprites and less detail.

Professor,
                       forgive me if i sound a little upset, it is not personal, but i take strong issue with you saying 'other indie games of this similar size and detail... Where, pray tell please, do you get this understanding of 'similar size and detail...'?  I am not a developer, but certainly though there are some on these forums who are, but even so, by what general and generic standard do all other indie games of similar ilk suddenly become superior based on 'better' art or 'animations'? Several indie titles come immediately to my mind, and though interesting i would hardly call them superior, but rather inferior in my mind... such as 'Vessel', and 'Limbo'... or 'Bastion' or 'Braid'.  The 'Dead Pixels' or 'Home' or 'Defenders Quest' or 'Resonance' or 'Gemini Rue' or 'Hotline Miami' or 'Triple Town' or 'Sine Mora', "Castle Crashers' and 'Don't Starve' and 'Anna' and 'Thomas Was Alone' which all strike me as indie games, and certainly-certainly interesting and perhaps even fun to play. But superior on the same budget? I hardly think so, and also i have no idea of what their budgets to produce these other  games were. Much less am  i in a position to certify them as 'better' due to some internally defined, though certainly unmentioned and uncorroborated measurement of quantity or quality per pixel. You certainly are entitled to your opinion, but expressing it as if it were market knowledge that everyone is aware of is rather distasteful at best and misleading and incorrect at worst.

If you can substantiate your statements with something approaching some 'norm' standard that everyone is aware of and agrees applies to the games you haven't mentioned and their comparison to AV2 then i would certainly be willing to digress my remarks, but without such substantiation, then i must assume that you are expressing an opinion in light of your own biases and opinions without balancing them against some agreed on standard that everyone agrees with.

-Teal

p.s.  In addition, this is the 'very first day' that any major gameplay art has been release, in 'alpha' and certainly not complete, so how can anyone, including you have the temerity to compare it to finished games without seeing any of the changes that will be coming? Frankly I am disgusted and if i were a developer i would want to throw my hands up and walk away. Everybody in the world passes out opinions as if they were God spoken gospel, which frankly strikes me as rather Prima Donna-ish behaviour.

There I am done. I wanted to be nice and polite about all this, but is gets rather difficult with trolls and 'experts' throwing this and that around only 'hours' after alpha has released.

[Echo35]

I think it looks fine for what it is too, but I don't think that's so much the problem as it is that there are a LOT of sidescrollers made on similar budgets to that just look better.

[Teal_Blue]

I think it looks fine for what it is too, but I don't think that's so much the problem as it is that there are a LOT of sidescrollers made on similar budgets to that just look better.

I like this one!