If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?

[The Wuggly Ump]

I'm sick of grinding to get the spells I like every time I start a new continent. Let me keep some (or all!) of them, please. Especially double jump.

Actually, here's a crazy idea: let me pick which spells to keep when I move to a new continent. More choice is alway nice.

I don't think this is a good idea because people will keep using the same spells.  One of the great things about the game is there are like 50+ spells.  I think there should be some kind of mechanics that forces people to use different spells, possibly only make some of them available on specific continents.  It doesn't help either that once you get a good right arm enchant for 60%+ dmg you tend to keep using that element.

That'd be fine too, as long as I got the spells immediately instead of having to unlock them. Actually my original idea was for the player to keep the level of spells they didn't use at all in the previous continent, so they'd have to think strategically about what spells to use and upgrade, but I think I mentioned that somewhere else and it didn't seem relevant.

[Dizzard]

I also miss things like how mobs of enemies used to threaten my settlement.

That sounds like a lot of fun.

I'm not sure I would call it fun it also applied to the vengeful ghosts left behind when you died. At one point in early beta I had a settlement wiped out by five of my own vengeful ghosts not good.

It makes the world feel alive. If nobody ever threatens you and your allies existence then as a game about survival AVWW would really fail. (that's nothing to do with the exploration side of the game mind) Do the overlords actually do anything to make you and your settlers lives harder? I wouldn't really count the tier level of regions going up as something the overlord actively does. That's more like a game mechanic quirk.

The way I see it is that in a world where survival is such an important thing, being technically able to just stand around in a region doing nothing for hours on end without consequences is odd. Even in Terraria you had times when you'd be wandering around exploring and suddenly a message would appear in the top corner of the screen saying an army of goblins were heading for your settlement to wreck havok. It wasn't happening every single day (or even every single week) but it still happened occasionally. (then you had the blood moons also....it's just a sort of rallying together/call to arms feeling that doesn't exist in AVWW right now.)

It's something that would make npcs feel more important too and you wouldn't take them for granted. Although it would probably have to be a bit easier to come by npcs though. I can understand it's difficult to find a specific npc at the best of times only to have them slain in battle the day after you recruit them would be insanely annoying. You could always make it so npcs are trained rather than being pigeon holed into the one profession though.

For me when it comes to the game dragging, it's not so much that the game drags (although many have made very good observations on this already) but more that I don't feel like I have a strong purpose. That the overlord and his lieutenants are such a terrible plight on the land seems very abstract.  I mean the overlord isn't doing anything to hurt me really (and nothing at all to hurt my npcs), I could just hang out in my settlement forever and we'd all be fine. I'd like to see the game attempt to whack me over the head if I ever get too comfy or complacent. Have moments where I'm running around with my pants on fire but not necessarily moments where all hope feels lost.

I don't know if being at all helpful.

[stevebat]

I have but three issues that have not already been expounded upon here

1. The spell variety seems a bit lacking. I find myself regularly gravitating towards 2 spells (Lightning orb and Forest Rage) despite having gone through several continents with them. The high cost mana spells are useless (to me) right now thanks to the mana cost reduction "nerf" I find that slightly lower cost ranged spells work the best as long as I keep elemental variety.

2. Freaking knockback. Fairy bosses are a royal PITA because they go flying off in a direction when I nail them. Certain espers are particularly annoying in this habit too (Amoebas are the worst offenders of the lot). On the espers I can just ignore them and move on but the fairies are Freaking mini-bosses.

3. The lieutenants don't feel very special. They are big, yes but they don't do any unique attacks that their miniboss equivalents don't already do (Granted I have had nothing but skelebot lieutenants so far so maybe my view is skewed), They just feel like big damage sponge bosses to me.

[Penumbra]

2. Freaking knockback. Fairy bosses are a royal PITA because they go flying off in a direction when I nail them. Certain espers are particularly annoying in this habit too (Amoebas are the worst offenders of the lot). On the espers I can just ignore them and move on but the fairies are Freaking mini-bosses.

This is one of the key reasons to use more spells! Energy Orb causes no knockback, and is perfect for fighting the fairy bosses.

[mrhanman]

I like energy slice for faires, because it cuts right through their minions. 

[Epitaph64]

I like the enchant system as it is. More variety is always welcome and if anything, I'd like to see it hard to get exactly the enchants you want. It's fun to adapt the playstyle to the powerful enchants I find. For instance, I have a very good enchant that also gives 100% extra damage taken so I counteract that with damage reflection in my other enchants.

[Misery]

2. Freaking knockback. Fairy bosses are a royal PITA because they go flying off in a direction when I nail them. Certain espers are particularly annoying in this habit too (Amoebas are the worst offenders of the lot). On the espers I can just ignore them and move on but the fairies are Freaking mini-bosses.

This is one of the key reasons to use more spells! Energy Orb causes no knockback, and is perfect for fighting the fairy bosses.

Aye, I agree.

Energy Slice is another good attack;  really great against fairies (because it can slice through the small ones and hit the actual boss), and absolutely excellent against both dragons and the big green amoebas.

[stevebat]

Point taken and noted. Thanks guys.

[LintMan]

The grindy points for me generally revolve around spell crafting:
1 - early on the continent, your mobility is very limited (especially on the 1st continent) making gem/ore/coral/clay/ingot resource gathering very slow going.  Later on, gathering is a bit quicker, mobility-wise, but the spells are so much more expensive.  So it pays to focus on just a very few spells.  If you instead want to experiment and diversify, the grind gets really bad.   And as I see it, while getting to the next continent opens up new stuff, there's not all THAT much new stuff to do there, so why not encourage players to stick around a bit longer on each continent rather than racing forward?

2 - Getting the arcane ingredients are also a bit of a grind: The best source of these is the main map missions, but you are extremely limited in the number of these you can do without raising CP to the next tier.  And you also need those same main map missions to get the building scrolls.  So you end up having to grind on secret missions, which take a while to find, may not actually be what you need, and provide less reward even when it is.  It's a bummer to make my way across a series of caves to a secret mission only to discover that the reward is a buoy and a minor boost scroll.

3 - So by the time you're really able to freely do main missions to gather the huge variety of resources you need, you'll be at tier 5, which means that to get the spells you want to try out and experiment with up to effectiveness, you have to get them to tier 5 too.

(A side note about those temporary effect scrolls: They feel a bit like a booby prize to me.  A 5 minute boost to some ability or stat isn't nearly as valuable or useful as a building scroll or spell resource is, IMHO.  Not even if it was a 25 minute boost.)

I understand that you don't want to make it too easy to race to get one or two tier 5 spells and then kill the overlord, so how about this:
The first spell of a particular color to be upgraded to any given tier costs full price.  After that, other spells of the same color can be upgraded to that same tier at a substantial discount.

Alternately. I suggested on Mantis a game option to multiply the resources given as one way to reduce this grind.

[Misery]

2 - Getting the arcane ingredients are also a bit of a grind: The best source of these is the main map missions, but you are extremely limited in the number of these you can do without raising CP to the next tier.  And you also need those same main map missions to get the building scrolls.  So you end up having to grind on secret missions, which take a while to find, may not actually be what you need, and provide less reward even when it is.  It's a bummer to make my way across a series of caves to a secret mission only to discover that the reward is a buoy and a minor boost scroll.

3 - So by the time you're really able to freely do main missions to gather the huge variety of resources you need, you'll be at tier 5, which means that to get the spells you want to try out and experiment with up to effectiveness, you have to get them to tier 5 too.

(A side note about those temporary effect scrolls: They feel a bit like a booby prize to me.  A 5 minute boost to some ability or stat isn't nearly as valuable or useful as a building scroll or spell resource is, IMHO.  Not even if it was a 25 minute boost.)

As I understand it, the whole thing with the CP is there to force the player to make choices;  you can only do so many missions before next tier, so you have to decide for yourself what the priorities are;  it keeps players from being able to just level EVERY freaking spell up every time, and also tends to DISCOURAGE the very grinding you speak of (or, that's the idea anyway).  As you go through any given continent, you're generally going to end up with a specific set of spells based on the choices made;  I think that's WAY more interesting/challenging than just "do them all every time".   Not to mention..... this game REALLY isnt for completionists.  That type of decision-making permeates the whole experience.  You CAN go run around and grind for components if you really want to....  just as you could explore EVERY room in EVERY building or cave you go to..... but it's a very non-practical and inconvenient approach, and in the long run, wont actually accomplish much.  Which is, I think, how the secret missions should stay.

Not to mention, alot of this would become overly trivial if the costs for crafting were so dramatically reduced.

All of that being said, I do think there are a few very specific arcane items that are...... a little abnormally difficult to get.   Mainly, the Sea Essence (when you dont have swamps unlocked.... and even then I'm not sure, because I dont HAVE those unlocked yet).  You need missions to spawn in Shallows for this, and those shallows need to be ones you can REACH, and this almost always involves multiple buoys AND a shelter.   Coral isnt too tough to get.... because once you ARE in one of those you're gonna find plenty of it.... but the Sea Essence?  Yeah, good luck with that.

The comet shards or whatever those are also seem a little annoying to get, but I've only JUST started encountering them, so it might just seem that way for now.


As for the scrolls..... that depends a bit on the player and the situation, it seems.   I've had a couple of missions recently where I used a boost scroll, and it actually made the difference between victory and defeat (like a particularly nasty Battleground; that WOULD have ended badly if my damage level hadnt been so high thanks to the scrolls).  My only problem is that they dont last long.   But something like a 20 to 40% boost can make quite a difference, particularly over time..... I'd rather see these work for, say, 20-25 minutes, particularly considering that they do require some trouble to get.   I do use them pretty often though.

[LintMan]

As I understand it, the whole thing with the CP is there to force the player to make choices;  you can only do so many missions before next tier, so you have to decide for yourself what the priorities are;  it keeps players from being able to just level EVERY freaking spell up every time, and also tends to DISCOURAGE the very grinding you speak of (or, that's the idea anyway).  As you go through any given continent, you're generally going to end up with a specific set of spells based on the choices made;  I think that's WAY more interesting/challenging than just "do them all every time".   Not to mention..... this game REALLY isnt for completionists.  That type of decision-making permeates the whole experience.  You CAN go run around and grind for components if you really want to....  just as you could explore EVERY room in EVERY building or cave you go to..... but it's a very non-practical and inconvenient approach, and in the long run, wont actually accomplish much.  Which is, I think, how the secret missions should stay.

I've already debated the pros and cons of the "make the hard choices on what to focus on" philosophy extensively on my Mantis ticket so I don't really want to rehash the whole thing again here, but I'd like to point out a few things:
- The "hard choices" aren't really that hard.  You can easily get by with just leveling up your favorite 3 or so offensive spells.  Having more spell variety isn't  really that big a benefit beyond "flavor".
- If you want to discourage grinding, making things expensive so it will require EVEN MORE grinding seems like a backwards way of doing that.
 

Not to mention, alot of this would become overly trivial if the costs for crafting were so dramatically reduced.

The only things that would be "dramatically reduced" would be the additional spells of the same color.  Which you likely wouldn't be leveling up at all anyway if you're following the "make the hard choices" philosophy, because you need to diversify your spell colors.

As for the scrolls..... that depends a bit on the player and the situation, it seems.   I've had a couple of missions recently where I used a boost scroll, and it actually made the difference between victory and defeat (like a particularly nasty Battleground; that WOULD have ended badly if my damage level hadnt been so high thanks to the scrolls).  My only problem is that they dont last long.   But something like a 20 to 40% boost can make quite a difference, particularly over time..... I'd rather see these work for, say, 20-25 minutes, particularly considering that they do require some trouble to get.   I do use them pretty often though.

If I could activate them in-mission where I'd know better if I actually needed it or not , instead of from the settlement, that would help.   That would also help them be useful for lieutenant or overlord battles.  As they are now, they're very likely to expire before you reach the boss.

[zebramatt]

As for the scrolls..... that depends a bit on the player and the situation, it seems.   I've had a couple of missions recently where I used a boost scroll, and it actually made the difference between victory and defeat (like a particularly nasty Battleground; that WOULD have ended badly if my damage level hadnt been so high thanks to the scrolls).  My only problem is that they dont last long.   But something like a 20 to 40% boost can make quite a difference, particularly over time..... I'd rather see these work for, say, 20-25 minutes, particularly considering that they do require some trouble to get.   I do use them pretty often though.

If I could activate them in-mission where I'd know better if I actually needed it or not , instead of from the settlement, that would help.   That would also help them be useful for lieutenant or overlord battles.  As they are now, they're very likely to expire before you reach the boss.

You can, can't you? From the Planning menu?

[Misery]

I've already debated the pros and cons of the "make the hard choices on what to focus on" philosophy extensively on my Mantis ticket so I don't really want to rehash the whole thing again here, but I'd like to point out a few things:
- The "hard choices" aren't really that hard.  You can easily get by with just leveling up your favorite 3 or so offensive spells.  Having more spell variety isn't  really that big a benefit beyond "flavor".
- If you want to discourage grinding, making things expensive so it will require EVEN MORE grinding seems like a backwards way of doing that.

The bit about spell variety is (somewhat) true....  in all honesty I use more spells than just basic attacks myself, but I always play on high difficulties..... but that's something the devs have stated often that they want to work on.

As for grinding...... er...... that one REALLY seems subjective.   I havent seen ANY grind in the game, aside from the upgrade stones before they changed the costs.  That might be my playstyle being different, or something, but I dont think I've ever grinded for anything at all in the game aside from those stones.   Ever.  And as said above, I use alot more spells than just 2 or 3.    I am certain of this fact because of the simple fact that I ABSOLUTELY ABHOR GRINDING.   I cant stand it for more than about negative 20 seconds.  It's why I dont play RPGs half the time, because the instant I hit a "gotta grind" section (in what is already, to me, a rather dull genre), I stop and sell off the game.  This is due to an absolute and total lack of any patience whatsoever.  In this, though, basic ingredients are found by mere exploration, which the game is all about in the first place, and arcane ingredients, well, careful mission selection makes sure I get what I need; the "search for supplies" scrolls are used to produce a better selection when the game is being snotty about it (or the Sunrise/Moonrise trick to cycle them).   The ONLY item I've ever had trouble with in the game is the Sea Essence, and as such I've just ignored it, until the swamps unlock.

I've seen people that think the game is FULL of grinding.... and I've seen others similar to myself that dont see any at all.  I've wondered just how that makes any sense, but..... I'm guessing it's playstyle and such.
 

The only things that would be "dramatically reduced" would be the additional spells of the same color.  Which you likely wouldn't be leveling up at all anyway if you're following the "make the hard choices" philosophy, because you need to diversify your spell colors.

Currently?  You dont need to diversify that much.  TWO colors will do, for attack spells.... three at most, and even then, that's excessive most of the time.  It's certainly possible they might change it later, but right now it makes WAY more sense to specialize than to try to use all colors.   Oh, I'll often branch off into colors I'm not using for attack.... like fire, for the Fire Shield, or stuff like that, but that hasnt given me any trouble yet, in terms of getting the stuff for them.

You can, can't you? From the Planning menu?

.......holy crap.  You're right.  You CAN use these outside of settlements and even IN areas you're exploring.   Just went and tested this....

Either the game did not make this apparant during the tutorial, or I merely missed it..... it's also not obvious because of the fact that it looks like you can only do it during invincibility;  the planning menu vanishes the moment you move (makes sense to me).   Whoa.  I do wish I'd known about this before!   It mighta saved me some difficulties in certain areas.

Thanks, Zebramatt, for pointing that out.  That'll be helpful indeed.

But yeah, it seems like it's not whatsoever obvious that you can do this with these;  the planning menu going *poof* every time you end invincibility, well..... usually I'm scanning for foes during invincibility-on-entering, so I never noticed it down there....

[nanostrike]

I'll tell you one REALLY big drag that I've noticed: You can't use a Warp Gate to directly exit to the world map.  This is really annoying.

It forces me to teleport back to that first chunk, then walk out, which can take quite a bit if that Warpgate in the first chunk is underwater or in a cave.

It's trivial, really, to make us have to do that walk.  If you can get to a warpgate, you can usually get back to the settlement anyway.  Just let us "Warp to World Map" from inside a Warpgate and cut down on the trivial walking, please?

[Wanderer]

I wanted to think about my answer to this before I commented because there are some things in this game that feel annoying to me not because they're grindy, but because it's outside my usual genres.  Or at least is for the last 10 years or so.  I am definately not the guy.  So I wanted to try to see my biases.

Also realize 95% of my gametime is on a multi-player server where different people have different goals, and sometimes that competes with World Tier.

There are a few things that feel grindy to me. 

Mission only spell components:
One is mission only spell components.  Because some of them (I'm looking at you, Earth Essence) usually only pop in one or two/mission and you need eight or better, you spend the entire Tier 4 looking for only missions with that as a prize.  This leaves you at the mercy of the RNG or having to hunt down secret after secret hoping the one or two prizes are what you need.

There are two ways I could see reducing this.  The first is to make 'seek resources' not be CP missions.  The second is allow some secret missions to be 'pick your own prize'.  Since I don't really get a choice of what mission it is, I'd have to do whatever came up, even if it's outside my 'favorite', or I could skip it.

Town Building
This has been recently addressed in the patch, so until I see how that flows I don't see a reason to comment.  The new pieces and enforcing order/volume are a welcome thing to see.

Maze Rooms and Puzzles
Okay, I get the maze rooms, but when I first started I tried going into everything, now I avoid them like the plague.  However, when you're first starting, you get this real feeling of NEEDING to build your enchantment library.  Then you spend 4 hours in 3 maze rooms or something equally foolish.  Now, I realize the store etc makes this less of an impact, but the maze rooms are still grindy to me.

However, these rooms are primarily used as delays in getting to the REAL grind... puzzle rooms.  Alright, I get it's supposed to be a spell usage/aiming challenge.  Do they REALLY need 400+ orbs in them?  I did one of these once just to see.  It took me two hours trying to aim different spells in different ways to figure out what/how/where/when.  Also, that's not a puzzle, it's a test of patience.  All too often spells 'slip' and hit inner orbs, you're trying to walk a blue/red to the outer corner to just hit one and now you hit 3 instead of two, etc.  A 50 orb room wouldn't be TOO bad, then it's just something different to do for 10-20 minutes.  At 400 it's a bit much.

and those enchantment comments lead to:
Legendary Enchants
This is a biased annoyance and probably doesn't belong in this list, but I'd like to see some Lieutenant level bosses who drop legendaries in some secret missions.  6 drops/continent when they're procedural seems less then optimal, and I'd like a chance to go after more bosses for better ones without having to switch continents.

Oblivion style world leveling
The last piece that's 'grindy' to me is more of a feeling then anything else.  It's the fact that I never get anywhere.  Sure, the idea of 'constant challenge' is good, but this game has a 'leveling' feeling as you build bigger spells and whatnot.  When are they bigger?  They aren't.  The only thing they are, ever, is "too small" if you go OL/LT hunting too early.  You can never go farm Green Slimes, they grow up with you.

Now, for World Missions matching Tier makes sense, they're the 'challenging' part and the OL's not exactly excited you're coming after him.  I'd like to see the old mechanic that I've only seen pictures of in Beta where the tiers 'spread out' from you and if you go back to an 'early area', you're a superman.

However, I realized something while I was pondering that for this... and it's that it will cut early players off from far-reaching areas to get their favorite spells, because they'd be T4/5.  That's absolutely no good either.  I don't have a solution to the issue, but right now my numbers simply match their new numbers.  Yay?