If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?

[x4000]

Upgrade stones are now trivial to get, and we have further changes planned for those.

Platforms and boxes are plentiful enough that presumably those would not be an issue.

It takes a while to get really good enchants, especially if you have a particular type of enchant you're interested in.  Any thoughts there?  How bad do you find that?

Then there's materials for the new spells and guardian powers and NPCs and all that.  Those can take a while, but I'm not sure how long a lot of folks are finding they have to grind secret missions in order to get what they want.  I tend to be more flexible and go with the flow, but if you're after specific goals then I expect your experience could be really different.  Thoughts there on how the experience has been for you thus far.


No need to be rude or accusatory if you've been having a rough time, please -- we're asking for feedback here, so cut us a break and let's just get down to the issues themselves.  Several major review sources have been complaining that we're wasting your time with how the game is structured -- making you do lots of things in too repetitive of a fashion.  However, feedback during late beta was exactly the opposite (how many of you were telling us to put in our marketing materials "without the traditional grind?"  Boy I'm glad we didn't, given how things have shaken out.).

What I'm looking to do is collect some player feedback here about where the tension points are for various styles of play -- everybody plays a big differently.

TLDR: Where is there a point in the game where you want to do something fun, but instead the game is making you do an activity you find un-fun before you can get back to the fun bits?

[KDR_11k]

I don't know if trivial upgrade stones may not be part of the problem: One of those tedious but beneficial things that can be ground and is then considered mandatory. I'm still highly conservative with the things, only using a boost or two when I'm dealing with a REALLY dangerous situation but others seem to think that you're underpowered if you don't have 10/10 upgrades. Maybe they should be boss-only drops just like experience was back in 0.500 so they are neither trivial nor farmable.

[x4000]

The current plan with upgrade stones is actually to make those be something you don't even collect: you just get 10 points to allocate to your character for purposes of customization, and that's that.  Then there's nothing at all to collect ever, relating to character death in that particular way.  Other optional spell scrolls and traps and goodies in the stashes would then be the draw for those: new stuff you want to find in stashes, rather than repetitious stuff you're forced to go find to remain competitive.

The reason I've been thinking in that direction is that upgrade stones represent some basic character choice for players: and the whole collection mechanic with those just gets in the way of that and slows things down.

[Quaix]

It takes a while to get really good enchants, especially if you have a particular type of enchant you're interested in.  Any thoughts there?  How bad do you find that?

I like the enchant system the way it is right now. I really like how they always get better, on average. It's like you've taken a loot game like Diablo and abstracted it away into enchant containers. I know some people aren't too happy that some green and blue enchants they get are useless, but I really think they should be kept the way they are right now. Making rarer enchants better will have those same people complaining that all the common enchants are now useless.

Then there's materials for the new spells and guardian powers and NPCs and all that.

There's a few potential bottlenecks early on that sometimes get in the way of getting your NPCs to level II and III. There's one NPC that you need to get all the other ones to level III. (I believe you need both stonebinder and lumbermancer to build the rest of the buildings). If you're unlucky and don't get those NPCs at the start, you have to look for them with rescue missions. But at this point you can't cast seek survivor! On continent 2 I found two rescue missions but unfortunately I failed them, and to progress further I had to search buildings specifically for a rescue mission. I really think Seek Survivor and Seek Resources spells should be more easily accessible early on.

I haven't tried 1.011 or 1.012 yet, so if anything I said contradicts what's in the latest versions, please disregard those parts.

[Voroshilov]

Right now I'm at Tier 4 on my first continent and I can't defeat the Overlord (cleared all of the lieutenants). So, the obvious thing to do is upgrade my main spells. I need 7 Charred Amber and I just can't seem to get them. I used Seek Resources to get 5 missions in Grasslands and got only one mission offering Charred Amber, and that was for a single piece. Now that I unlocked Cat's Eyes and Sunstones, it feels like those materials are everywhere and they're blocking from getting what I need. I also need Magma, but my desert is filled with missions offering limited time buffs. I don't feel a minor buff for a paltry 5 minutes is worth raising the tier of my continent.

That's where it's dragging for me. I have to push myself to do missions that don't give me what I want, which pushes me towards a higher tier, which is exactly what I don't want when my spells need to be stronger.

[LayZboy]

I like the enchant system the way it is right now. I really like how they always get better, on average. It's like you've taken a loot game like Diablo and abstracted it away into enchant containers. I know some people aren't too happy that some green and blue enchants they get are useless, but I really think they should be kept the way they are right now. Making rarer enchants better will have those same people complaining that all the common enchants are now useless.

I don't really mind that green n blue enchants are not normally that good, it's mostly the legendary (and sometimes purple) ones I have a problem with. They are pretty rare sometimes, and you can go whole continents without getting one, and when you do get one it's not as good as a common enchant which you may already have.

I suppose you could just remove the "Legendary" types and I probably won't be that bothered anymore.

[nanostrike]

This is a good topic.  I'll toss my two-cents in.


The first "Dragging" part would be early-on, when you don't have any enchants and you have to get some. You're basically stuck grinding for them, no matter what.  Sure, you can get some through missions or caving, but most of the time, you have to either grind buildings, grind killing enemies (For consciousness shards), or grind Pyramids.  I know a lot of people like to explore to find the enchants, and I do too...

But I just find the current system really tedious.  Having to go through almost every inch of a Maze Room to get enchants is maddening, and finding only 1 or 2 enchant containers in a Stash is a real bummer too.  Maybe make stashes drop full Enchant containers and maybe have Maze rooms have 2-3 full containers hidden in there somewhere instead of a crapton of little ones.


The second is trying to get the "Right" enchantment.  In one of my games, I've been looking for a Conserving Mind enchantment for AGES and I haven't found one.  I'm using Right-Arm Seeker and buying Right Arm enchants left and right and simply not getting one.  So it's basically turned into a "Grind for what you need" situation.  I like the random nature of the enchants and such, but there should be some sort of way to get a more specific one somehow.

I'd purpose an "Enchant Trade" system, where you can trade in several enchants of the same slot and get to choose a replacement.  For example, trade in 10 Right Arm Enchants and you get to choose from a list of Right Arm Enchants, even rare ones.  The quality of what you get would still be random, but you'd know what type of right-arm enchant it was.  You could do this for any slot, potentially.  It would allow some nice customization and some choices.  Do I want to use Leg Seeker and get a bunch of potentially useless enchants so I can trade a dozen of them for a Triple Jump?  Or do I want to not use the Leg Seeker and hope I get a good enchant for another body part?



The third is the Lieutenants.  By the time I'm ready to face them, I'm usually ready to face all three AND the overlord in quick succession.  And that makes me realize how repetitive it is to go through 3 "Evil Outpost" towers that are almost the same and fight 3 Lieutenants that are also very, very similar.

And in return, you get ONE enchant for it.  Nothing else.  The wind doesn't get weaker, you get no resources, nothing.  There is almost literally no incentive to kill a Lieutenant other than to eventually kill the Overlord.  IMO, it's a pretty big weak point in the game.


The last one is the repetitiveness of going to a new continent.  Sure, there's new stuff.  But you end up doing mostly the exact same things.  Rescue survivors.  Build Wind Shelters.  Tier up spells.  Kill Lieutenants.  Kill Overlord.  Move on.  There isn't much variety to this, unfortunately, and it makes each new continent feel like just more work than something rewarding.

And being able to bring your Enchants to the new continent makes things really awkward in the early Tiers.  Triple Jumping around with 60% detection reduction, 50% Mana Cost Reduction and a 60% Cooldown Rate reduction during Tier 1 makes the entire Tier almost pointless.

Once you have some good enchants, your character is basically "Maxed out" already, and you're just going through the above steps to kill the overlord again.

[Terraziel]

I'll admit to not having read the reviews, but I'd guess the main focus for thing beings repetitive is the tier system, remaking the same spell 4-5 times and then doing it for however many spells you use is going to be repetitive by anyone's standards, largely because of the perceived lack of progress over any actual repetition in what you're doing. I have to say that that is probably my interpretation because recently I have been considering suggesting removing the tier system entirely, back when we had infinite tiers there was an argument for it but as we just repeat the same 5 tiers now it seems sort of like a hangover.

TLDR: Where is there a point in the game where you want to do something fun, but instead the game is making you do an activity you find un-fun before you can get back to the fun bits?

This is going to seem a really strange answer, and indeed not specifically the kind of answer you are after, but the least as it stands the least fun I have in the game is when it comes time to kill the Overlord. I enjoy everything up to and including killing the lieutenants (which I generally do when I have a couple of Tier 4 spells), but when it comes to the Overlord it is all sort of overridden by the knowledge that killing the Overlord makes what you just spent your time doing completely pointless.

As to the real question of where I find there to be grind or drag, it's mostly down to spell choice, I arbitrarily pick new spells to use when I start a new continent, if missions don't offer what I want then that is where the drag comes into it, you can spend a lot of time getting nowhere whilst trying to get what you want rather than using what the game offers you.

I suppose the real problem there is once you are part way down a path switching to a different one is somewhere between difficult and tedious. I mean if all the initial missions give me say Sea Essence and I start upgrading my Water Spells, then suddenly the RNG screws me and no Sea Essence spawns, my options are either...

1) Persevere with Water Spells and grind secret missions or advance time a lot in hope that some turns up.
2) See what resources are spawning and start again from scratch with those spells whilst hoping that the RNG doesn't Screw me twice.

Neither of these are particularly fun options. and the second whilst the most rational choice goes against the grain, it's like I am giving in to the system not going along with it.

[Martyn van Buren]

I'd like more short-term goals that do some good to the world rather than the player.  Actually I think we have a bit too much of the "one more term" thing Chris was talking about.

I really don't find all the grind-type stuff --- getting better gems, spells, etc --- compelling.  That is to say, the possibility of killing an overlord doesn't motivate me to fire up the game, and then go look for some upgrade stones so I can go get some sapphire so I can finish some tier three missions so I can get some tier four spells so I can take on a lieutenant.  I find much more that I just want to wander out into the world and get some incidental thing done and then get distracted and go somewhere else.  I'm pretty happy setting my own fairly arbitrary goals, but I'd probably play more if I could spend half an hour and help one of my NPCs get his teddy bear back or what-have-you.

[Penumbra]

In AI war, you have a single resource to grind gather for gaining new ships, knowledge. You make your tough choices in how and where to gather that, and take the repercussions. But, what you can spend that knowledge on is based on a different hard choice of what to steal from the AI.   

In AVWW, we get too many of some things, and not enough of others. The 15 tier orbs per CP level is too many, I never have nearly enough resources to use even half of those. Then, as Terraziel said, one hard choice for specific resources in the beginning might actually be wrong by not getting any more of that resource.  It's like picking to upgrade to a Rank II ship and finding out later you aren't allowed to get the Rank III for reasons that were totally unforeseeable.  At least in AI War your low ranked ships still have purpose.

So, the part that feels a little "draggy" would be the hunting for secret missions and hoping the RNG gives me what I want. I feel like I have no control and am floundering. Having checked X secret missions with things I don't want doesn't give me a sense of "progress."

There was a suggestion somewhere (don't remember) about a way to trade one resource for another, even like 2 or 3 to 1. While not "optimal" it would at least give a sense of progress. Then, finding the "wrong" thing isn't worth zero progress, it's worth a third.

Same thing with NPC professions. Maybe there could be a school that could retrain some. Like, if you have 3 Technozoologists, you could make one something else.

[Dizzard]

The last one is the repetitiveness of going to a new continent.  Sure, there's new stuff.  But you end up doing mostly the exact same things.  Rescue survivors.  Build Wind Shelters.  Tier up spells.  Kill Lieutenants.  Kill Overlord.  Move on.  There isn't much variety to this, unfortunately, and it makes each new continent feel like just more work than something rewarding.

This is something I've been worried about myself. Although I'm still on the first continent in my game it was something I did notice in earlier builds of the game. It all seems very unnatural when you think about it. That every continent (or area of the map in earlier builds) you come across is in the EXACT same situation (ultimately) as the one you just left.

I also miss things like how mobs of enemies used to threaten my settlement. Sure it did get repetitive itself, but it was something that I actually had to react to....which was nice. I felt like I was actually protecting my people from something that was very real.

[Misery]

I'd like more short-term goals that do some good to the world rather than the player.  Actually I think we have a bit too much of the "one more term" thing Chris was talking about.

I really don't find all the grind-type stuff --- getting better gems, spells, etc --- compelling.  That is to say, the possibility of killing an overlord doesn't motivate me to fire up the game, and then go look for some upgrade stones so I can go get some sapphire so I can finish some tier three missions so I can get some tier four spells so I can take on a lieutenant.  I find much more that I just want to wander out into the world and get some incidental thing done and then get distracted and go somewhere else.  I'm pretty happy setting my own fairly arbitrary goals, but I'd probably play more if I could spend half an hour and help one of my NPCs get his teddy bear back or what-have-you.

I actually like the tier system for spells alot myself.   Most games of this type would just go the tired/boring route of having the player have to get experience points for EVERYTHING...... I much rather prefer exploring different caverns and environments, finding ore deposits after clobbering some monsters, and doing some missions for other items..... these activities are MUCH more varied than the usual sort of thing.   It's also more of what I expect from such an open world, "sandboxy" game like this; particularly one centered on exploration.


.....that being said, I TOTALLY agree that there should be some.... er..... "sidequest" stuff, I guess is the best way to put it.

I mean, ok, the Overlord, obviously this guy is trouble, right, so your MAIN job is to take him out.

Difficult world like that though, surely he's not the ONLY trouble; he's just the BIGGEST one.   There's gotta be other stuff that the survivors need to deal with.    The pirate ships on the worldmap, for instance.   These could be made into some sort of optional area/boss/whatever, perhaps more difficult than alot of similar stuff at whatever tier;  they'd be optional, and hard, but you could get something neat for doing them.    Other optional stuff would be nice too.   



As for if the game drags at any point?

Hmm...... I think it's a little slow at the very beginning of a new world, but.....  I dont find much drag anywhere else.   "Grind" seems ENTIRELY up to the player, as to wether grinding even appears or not.   Some players say the game has grinding;  others, such as myself, say there really isnt any.

Enchants though, the one thing about those is sometimes it can take AWHILE to get a new good one.   I really like the charge system;  collect enough charges, get enchant.  That part is nice.   The part that's a little annoying is that it's only every so often (and not really that often) that you'll get an enchant you'll want to KEEP, wether it's one you're gonna equip and use all the time, or one that you'll sometimes switch out.   I'm guessing that's hard to balance though;  as the very same thing happens in games like Diablo or Torchlight, where you'll get all of these random items..... but few of them that you'll want/keep/use.

I guess that'd be my only real issue, and it's not that much of one.

[kuliksco]

#1 - The part I dislike like mentioned about is going through mazes.  I have grown to just exit a building if I have to go through a maze room.  It's hard navigating the mini map because everything is small and the doors are hard to see because of the green enchant icons.  Maybe make the doors we have been through more pronounced or something more contrasting with the enchant icons.  I know you can zoom the minimap but then it just gets too big so I can't really have it like that when running around.  I have decent enchants and now that I can purchase them there is no need to farm these rooms.  Like above, I hate having to go to the corner of every part of the maze to get the enchants.

I really like the idea of having 100% enchant drops randomly in stashes or maze rooms.  This would make it feel more rewarding.  Only getting like 10% towards an enchant doesn't really fulfill my diablo tendencies.  Maybe it's time to get rid of the enchant containers and maybe 1/10 times where an enchant would spawn there would be a full enchant.

#2 - Now that I am on the 4th Continent and about 60 hours in with pretty much everything unlocked there isn't really a lot of incentive to keep continuing knowing it's basically going to be the same here on out with harder monsters and slightly better enchants.  Get npc's/buildings for windmill, get an upgrade 5 spell and head to overload.  Since then I have started playing on a higher difficulty but with the same statistics there isn't much incentive to do so.  I would propose making higher drop rates or better enchants/stashes with a raised difficulty.  Also, more achievements are good!

#3 - Buildings and profession abilities need to be improved.  My first 3 continents on normal difficulty, I only used special abilities a few times and I didn't notice much difference for the short 5 min time frame.  This has made me only attempt missions that have resources or buildings/npcs and just ignore the special abilities.  Maybe now that I am playing on hero I can see some missions like battlegrounds and other boss battles might be near impossible without them so my view may change.  Part of the problem is we need to go back to town to use them, so if I am about ready for a big boss battle I dont' really want to run back to town.  I would suggest being able to activate these abilities at any time.  This would also alleviate the fact I only have 5 mins to get to mission or overlord room and makes everything feel rushed and that I already wasted half of the time because the warp was far away.

Using these abilities just doesn't feel special.  I would propose at least an on screen buff so we don't need to hit escape to see what is still active.

#4 - Getting stuck using same spells.  After a few continents I just can't give up fireball.  I think part of the problem is the right hand enchants.  Maybe if they did something else than boost spell power I would try out more of the other skills.  My 64% fire damage enchant I found on continent 1 has been too good to me and other spells feel very weak comparatively.

[omegajasam]

Teir 1 Survivors.

Thats the worst bit by far. No Lumbermancer, no tier II. And you need tier III to use seek survivor. You can nullify this by killing off your charcters repeatably but this doesn't seem to follow the intent of the situation.

First set of Enchants

How quickly you become effective is almost entirely determined by these. Theres a world of diffrence f you get decent mana reduction, cool down, extra damage e.t.c. This would best be soved by making more ways of getting enchants on par with mazes.
And on that note...

Torso/Feet Slots

Since you five featherfall and moderate light right from the get go, it gets really hard to consider any other enchants you get in these slots for a long while. This gets fustrating quick if you get 5+ in a row X_X'.

Luts./Overlord

These seem to come in a sudden burst.  it was kinda fun honestly, but I feel the game would benifit for some more obvious, and spread out goals of this kind as you go through the teirs. As for most of the game theres little driving force.
Something like there being one lut. per teir, which you need to beat before you can use the next teirs upgrade orbs. or stuff with the sky priates, or stuff that makes your settlement cooler.

Trying out new spells

A lot (almost all) of spells are tier gated early on. This means that trying out almost any spell other then the defualt few requires a lot of extra grinding for materials to get them to a usable level. So the spell slection seems more limited then it is.

Lack of overarching driving force to progress

This occurs the moment you finish unlocking everything reasonable on a continent. At that point everything feels a lot more grindy as your just getting things for getting things sake. The overlord itself isn't overly motervating (He hasn't really done much other then has his name listed in the big bad slot). Some kind of multi-continental goal would be nice. Even if it's just a bigger statue to your awsomeness, shinyer buildings, or some other frivilious thing.

Puzzle Rooms/Lore Hunting

Rare to find rooms, that only seem to show up in the mazy buiildings, which end in a rather boring and finicy switch room. Thats bad enough to put most people off hunting for the lore.
Lore helps people care about the world, and would help aliviate the 'why am I beating up these big dudes who are stuck in these little rooms at the top of these towers' feeling you get between obsessing over the next upgrade material.

[Misery]

The part I dislike like mentioned about is going through mazes.  I have grown to just exit a building #1 - if I have to go through a maze room.  It's hard navigating the mini map because everything is small and the doors are hard to see because of the green enchant icons.  Maybe make the doors we have been through more pronounced or something more contrasting with the enchant icons.  I know you can zoom the minimap but then it just gets too big so I can't really have it like that when running around.  I have decent enchants and now that I can purchase them there is no need to farm these rooms.  Like above, I hate having to go to the corner of every part of the maze to get the enchants.

I really like the idea of having 100% enchant drops randomly in stashes or maze rooms.  This would make it feel more rewarding.  Only getting like 10% towards an enchant doesn't really fulfill my diablo tendencies.  Maybe it's time to get rid of the enchant containers and maybe 1/10 times where an enchant would spawn there would be a full enchant.

#2 - Now that I am on the 4th Continent and about 60 hours in with pretty much everything unlocked there isn't really a lot of incentive to keep continuing knowing it's basically going to be the same here on out with harder monsters and slightly better enchants.  Get npc's/buildings for windmill, get an upgrade 5 spell and head to overload.  Since then I have started playing on a higher difficulty but with the same statistics there isn't much incentive to do so.  I would propose making higher drop rates or better enchants/stashes with a raised difficulty.  Also, more achievements are good!

#3 - Buildings and profession abilities need to be improved.  My first 3 continents on normal difficulty, I only used special abilities a few times and I didn't notice much difference for the short 5 min time frame.  This has made me only attempt missions that have resources or buildings/npcs and just ignore the special abilities.  Maybe now that I am playing on hero I can see some missions like battlegrounds and other boss battles might be near impossible without them so my view may change.  Part of the problem is we need to go back to town to use them, so if I am about ready for a big boss battle I dont' really want to run back to town.  I would suggest being able to activate these abilities at any time.  This would also alleviate the fact I only have 5 mins to get to mission or overlord room and makes everything feel rushed and that I already wasted half of the time because the warp was far away.

Using these abilities just doesn't feel special.  I would propose at least an on screen buff so we don't need to hit escape to see what is still active.

There ARE "full" enchants that you can find on the ground, but they usually seem to be things like Acid Gills and whatnot.

Since 100% enchants seem to mostly be special boss drops, why not have, say, rare-ish "large" containers, that immediately give you 50-60%?  They'd be rare, but not THAT rare;  Maybe, as rare as the Bat scrolls?  I think with the current system, it'd be satisfying to find one of these.   But the special drops from the big bosses would still be special.


I agree with the bit about the guardian powers too.   They ARE useful..... but 5 minutes is very short.   Also having them just be more VARIED would be nice;  I like the whole profession system and the buildings and all, but would like to just see MORE types of guardian powers that could be found, both low level and high level ones.   That would be quite nice.