Author Topic: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?  (Read 9416 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2012, 04:20:20 AM »
I wanted to think about my answer to this before I commented because there are some things in this game that feel annoying to me not because they're grindy, but because it's outside my usual genres.  Or at least is for the last 10 years or so.  I am definately not the guy.  So I wanted to try to see my biases.

Also realize 95% of my gametime is on a multi-player server where different people have different goals, and sometimes that competes with World Tier.

There are a few things that feel grindy to me. 

Mission only spell components:
One is mission only spell components.  Because some of them (I'm looking at you, Earth Essence) usually only pop in one or two/mission and you need eight or better, you spend the entire Tier 4 looking for only missions with that as a prize.  This leaves you at the mercy of the RNG or having to hunt down secret after secret hoping the one or two prizes are what you need.

There are two ways I could see reducing this.  The first is to make 'seek resources' not be CP missions.  The second is allow some secret missions to be 'pick your own prize'.  Since I don't really get a choice of what mission it is, I'd have to do whatever came up, even if it's outside my 'favorite', or I could skip it.

Town Building
This has been recently addressed in the patch, so until I see how that flows I don't see a reason to comment.  The new pieces and enforcing order/volume are a welcome thing to see.

Maze Rooms and Puzzles
Okay, I get the maze rooms, but when I first started I tried going into everything, now I avoid them like the plague.  However, when you're first starting, you get this real feeling of NEEDING to build your enchantment library.  Then you spend 4 hours in 3 maze rooms or something equally foolish.  Now, I realize the store etc makes this less of an impact, but the maze rooms are still grindy to me.

However, these rooms are primarily used as delays in getting to the REAL grind... puzzle rooms.  Alright, I get it's supposed to be a spell usage/aiming challenge.  Do they REALLY need 400+ orbs in them?  I did one of these once just to see.  It took me two hours trying to aim different spells in different ways to figure out what/how/where/when.  Also, that's not a puzzle, it's a test of patience.  All too often spells 'slip' and hit inner orbs, you're trying to walk a blue/red to the outer corner to just hit one and now you hit 3 instead of two, etc.  A 50 orb room wouldn't be TOO bad, then it's just something different to do for 10-20 minutes.  At 400 it's a bit much.

and those enchantment comments lead to:
Legendary Enchants
This is a biased annoyance and probably doesn't belong in this list, but I'd like to see some Lieutenant level bosses who drop legendaries in some secret missions.  6 drops/continent when they're procedural seems less then optimal, and I'd like a chance to go after more bosses for better ones without having to switch continents.

Oblivion style world leveling
The last piece that's 'grindy' to me is more of a feeling then anything else.  It's the fact that I never get anywhere.  Sure, the idea of 'constant challenge' is good, but this game has a 'leveling' feeling as you build bigger spells and whatnot.  When are they bigger?  They aren't.  The only thing they are, ever, is "too small" if you go OL/LT hunting too early.  You can never go farm Green Slimes, they grow up with you.

Now, for World Missions matching Tier makes sense, they're the 'challenging' part and the OL's not exactly excited you're coming after him.  I'd like to see the old mechanic that I've only seen pictures of in Beta where the tiers 'spread out' from you and if you go back to an 'early area', you're a superman.

However, I realized something while I was pondering that for this... and it's that it will cut early players off from far-reaching areas to get their favorite spells, because they'd be T4/5.  That's absolutely no good either.  I don't have a solution to the issue, but right now my numbers simply match their new numbers.  Yay?


Hm, I actually agree with alot of that.

The whole "choose a reward" thing is a good idea if they were to implement it right.   Could get those accursed Sea Essences that way indeed.


The only bit I dont agree with is changing the tier system;  I know I sure as heck dont speak for everyone, but part of why I play the game and enjoy it as much as I do is because it's challenging.   Way too many games out there are so bloody easy that they barely take effort..... THIS one does.   And really, if there's an area where I'd be overpowered for, like, taking hardly any damage and squashing foes in one hit (due to character power, instead of say, difficulty setting)..... it's an area I have absolutely no desire to go to, and if I DO have to go to it, I'm bored before I even enter.   I cant focus on easy games whatsoever;  never could.


I would like to see the increase in difficulty be a little.... stronger though, as the tiers increase.  Enemies get new patterns and such, but their relative damage level usually only increases a little.   That's how it seems, anyway.

Offline omegajasam

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2012, 08:36:05 AM »
While I recall since it was brought up

Mission only spell components:

Since you only get to do 5 missions per tier, (and secret missions tend to have few and far between in rewards you want) the spell diversity per continent tends to be /very/ slim, as you only get enough materials to do so much. And onve your down an upgrade path it becomes more and more difficult to diversify (since more expensive tiers need more, and you've already used up a lot of your allotment). This is worst when the spells actually locked until mid teir

The only time you /can/ diversify and try out new spells is at teir 5, when it's a massive grind.
Or to sumerise...

The 'hard mission choices' /arnt/
Unless your willing to grind secret missions, at any tier above the second the choice is 90% of the time going to be an easy 'Continue upgrading the 2-3 spells I have upgraded so far, as I won't get enough materials to upgrade a new one'

The only time you make a choice is early on. Or if you want to grind.

Perhaps more misison reward materials, but of more varyed types (6-7 diffrent ones, as oppsed to 3-4 of the same) would at least mean your likly to /have/ other materials avialable for upgrades.




Offline nflftw

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2012, 09:47:33 AM »
The current plan with upgrade stones is actually to make those be something you don't even collect: you just get 10 points to allocate to your character for purposes of customization, and that's that.  Then there's nothing at all to collect ever, relating to character death in that particular way.  Other optional spell scrolls and traps and goodies in the stashes would then be the draw for those: new stuff you want to find in stashes, rather than repetitious stuff you're forced to go find to remain competitive.

The reason I've been thinking in that direction is that upgrade stones represent some basic character choice for players: and the whole collection mechanic with those just gets in the way of that and slows things down.

Please do this. I completely agree with you. This is the only way I've found the game dragging at all, even after the trivial nature of getting the stones. It just makes more sense, frankly.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2012, 10:21:22 AM »
Regarding the tier upgrade system, I think it could use a modification to make it such that you can both feel powerful and get a challenge.

How about if certain region types (chosen at random) got an upgraded tier level when you went up a level? So tier 2 would be applied per region type (or per time shard). At tier 2, let's say 1/2 of the tier shards went up to level 2. At tier 3, 1/2 of the tier shards went up to level 3, so there'd be a few that are still tier 1. At tier 4 and 5, etc. By tier 5 you'd have a mix of tier 3, 4 and 5 and maybe even a 2 somewhere.

Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2012, 11:42:46 AM »
Regarding the tier upgrade system, I think it could use a modification to make it such that you can both feel powerful and get a challenge.

How about if certain region types (chosen at random) got an upgraded tier level when you went up a level? So tier 2 would be applied per region type (or per time shard). At tier 2, let's say 1/2 of the tier shards went up to level 2. At tier 3, 1/2 of the tier shards went up to level 3, so there'd be a few that are still tier 1. At tier 4 and 5, etc. By tier 5 you'd have a mix of tier 3, 4 and 5 and maybe even a 2 somewhere.

/spitball

That could make for a fairly interesting mechanic if, rather than regions, individual chunks upgraded. So, you could have a T4 surrounded by T2 or T1 chunks. Then, take that idea of enemies 'bleeding' into other areas, and you could have the occasional souped up enemy floating around with the more normal enemies. A T3 mech, from a nearby chunk,walking around in a T2 town chunk.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2012, 12:33:55 PM »
OMG I just tried an outside JtP mission while miniaturized, using the most rapid-fire spell I have (I think it's plasma bolt) and I still wasn't able to do that stupid mission after about 30 tries!!! I hate them so much! Keep on landing on frickin' robots!

I swear if there's anything that hurts my enjoyment of the game more than anything else it's those missions. The only ones I like are the stealth assassination and anachronism. But even those I don't want to do over and over. Just make them optional! The strength of the game really isn't in those missions. I have the most fun when I'm thinking about what I want to get next, when I go to get it, when I get distracted on the way, and when I upgrade my stuff. It'd be really cool if upgrading my settlement really mattered as well, or if I could upgrade tiles or something. That's it. That's the core of the game. Everything else should be optional or should enhance that core experience (ie. quests to take care of while I'm hunting for stuff would be great).

If I could enhance the game to make the core stand out, I'd put an Ilari stone that talks to you every time you go to the settlement. "What did you get? Great! That's just what we need for X." It'd have a list of "We need X for the settlement to do Y. We need you to go to Z to take care of A and B." (ie. a list of quests) and "Looks like you could use some better spells. You can go to C to get D to get ingredients to upgrade your spell."

Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2012, 12:54:00 PM »
Perhaps that blue Ilari? It seems to be a sort of advisor, it gives another way to access the planning, so maybe, instead of that, it should advise based on recent events. Completed a mission and earned lots of magma? Great! That can be used to improve fire spells, along with X and Y. 'What is X?' X is a material earned from these places *list places*

A more personal version of the Big Honkin' Encyclopedia...

Offline kuliksco

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2012, 01:20:20 PM »
OMG I just tried an outside JtP mission while miniaturized, using the most rapid-fire spell I have (I think it's plasma bolt) and I still wasn't able to do that stupid mission after about 30 tries!!! I hate them so much! Keep on landing on frickin' robots!

I swear if there's anything that hurts my enjoyment of the game more than anything else it's those missions. The only ones I like are the stealth assassination and anachronism. But even those I don't want to do over and over. Just make them optional! The strength of the game really isn't in those missions. I have the most fun when I'm thinking about what I want to get next, when I go to get it, when I get distracted on the way, and when I upgrade my stuff. It'd be really cool if upgrading my settlement really mattered as well, or if I could upgrade tiles or something. That's it. That's the core of the game. Everything else should be optional or should enhance that core experience (ie. quests to take care of while I'm hunting for stuff would be great).

If I could enhance the game to make the core stand out, I'd put an Ilari stone that talks to you every time you go to the settlement. "What did you get? Great! That's just what we need for X." It'd have a list of "We need X for the settlement to do Y. We need you to go to Z to take care of A and B." (ie. a list of quests) and "Looks like you could use some better spells. You can go to C to get D to get ingredients to upgrade your spell."

Later on JtP missions are some of the easiest, especially on higher difficulties.  Get a triple jump, stealth enchant, and spam something like energy slice with tab targetting.  Don't forget to be using flash of light if it's dark.  Not really much to it...

Offline Bluddy

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2012, 01:33:34 PM »
OMG I just tried an outside JtP mission while miniaturized, using the most rapid-fire spell I have (I think it's plasma bolt) and I still wasn't able to do that stupid mission after about 30 tries!!! I hate them so much! Keep on landing on frickin' robots!

I swear if there's anything that hurts my enjoyment of the game more than anything else it's those missions. The only ones I like are the stealth assassination and anachronism. But even those I don't want to do over and over. Just make them optional! The strength of the game really isn't in those missions. I have the most fun when I'm thinking about what I want to get next, when I go to get it, when I get distracted on the way, and when I upgrade my stuff. It'd be really cool if upgrading my settlement really mattered as well, or if I could upgrade tiles or something. That's it. That's the core of the game. Everything else should be optional or should enhance that core experience (ie. quests to take care of while I'm hunting for stuff would be great).

If I could enhance the game to make the core stand out, I'd put an Ilari stone that talks to you every time you go to the settlement. "What did you get? Great! That's just what we need for X." It'd have a list of "We need X for the settlement to do Y. We need you to go to Z to take care of A and B." (ie. a list of quests) and "Looks like you could use some better spells. You can go to C to get D to get ingredients to upgrade your spell."

Later on JtP missions are some of the easiest, especially on higher difficulties.  Get a triple jump, stealth enchant, and spam something like energy slice with tab targetting.  Don't forget to be using flash of light if it's dark.  Not really much to it...

OK so if a mission is insanely hard initially and later on becomes trivially easy as you get enchants to help you cheese it, then you know what I think? I think it's broken and needs redesign.

Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2012, 01:42:03 PM »
OMG I just tried an outside JtP mission while miniaturized, using the most rapid-fire spell I have (I think it's plasma bolt) and I still wasn't able to do that stupid mission after about 30 tries!!! I hate them so much! Keep on landing on frickin' robots!

I swear if there's anything that hurts my enjoyment of the game more than anything else it's those missions. The only ones I like are the stealth assassination and anachronism. But even those I don't want to do over and over. Just make them optional! The strength of the game really isn't in those missions. I have the most fun when I'm thinking about what I want to get next, when I go to get it, when I get distracted on the way, and when I upgrade my stuff. It'd be really cool if upgrading my settlement really mattered as well, or if I could upgrade tiles or something. That's it. That's the core of the game. Everything else should be optional or should enhance that core experience (ie. quests to take care of while I'm hunting for stuff would be great).

If I could enhance the game to make the core stand out, I'd put an Ilari stone that talks to you every time you go to the settlement. "What did you get? Great! That's just what we need for X." It'd have a list of "We need X for the settlement to do Y. We need you to go to Z to take care of A and B." (ie. a list of quests) and "Looks like you could use some better spells. You can go to C to get D to get ingredients to upgrade your spell."

Later on JtP missions are some of the easiest, especially on higher difficulties.  Get a triple jump, stealth enchant, and spam something like energy slice with tab targetting.  Don't forget to be using flash of light if it's dark.  Not really much to it...

OK so if a mission is insanely hard initially and later on becomes trivially easy as you get enchants to help you cheese it, then you know what I think? I think it's broken and needs redesign.

But such things tend to happen anyway. Stuff that was ridiculously hard becomes much easier when you have all these upgrades boosting you.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »
OK so if a mission is insanely hard initially and later on becomes trivially easy as you get enchants to help you cheese it, then you know what I think? I think it's broken and needs redesign.
I'm inclined to agree with this point. However, I can't speak for the missions themselves, because I've never fricking seen one :P
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2012, 02:22:40 PM »
OK so if a mission is insanely hard initially and later on becomes trivially easy as you get enchants to help you cheese it, then you know what I think? I think it's broken and needs redesign.

I disagree. That sounds like a balance issue to me!

Offline Bluddy

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2012, 02:25:04 PM »
OK so if a mission is insanely hard initially and later on becomes trivially easy as you get enchants to help you cheese it, then you know what I think? I think it's broken and needs redesign.

I disagree. That sounds like a balance issue to me!

Same thing. Balance change is the same as redesigning from my perspective. I'm not saying to throw the mission away.

Offline LintMan

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2012, 02:50:05 PM »
I've seen people that think the game is FULL of grinding.... and I've seen others similar to myself that dont see any at all.  I've wondered just how that makes any sense, but..... I'm guessing it's playstyle and such.


As you said, it's very subjective.  I can easily imagine how what feels like grind for me might be awesome exploration for someone else.


Quote
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The only things that would be "dramatically reduced" would be the additional spells of the same color.  Which you likely wouldn't be leveling up at all anyway if you're following the "make the hard choices" philosophy, because you need to diversify your spell colors.

Currently?  You dont need to diversify that much.  TWO colors will do, for attack spells.... three at most, and even then, that's excessive most of the time.  It's certainly possible they might change it later, but right now it makes WAY more sense to specialize than to try to use all colors.   Oh, I'll often branch off into colors I'm not using for attack.... like fire, for the Fire Shield, or stuff like that, but that hasnt given me any trouble yet, in terms of getting the stuff for them.

Yes, that was my point.  If you believe in the "hard/focused choice" philosophy and only going to focus on getting 2-3 spells, you will be getting them in all different colors to diversify.  So my point being that making getting additional spells of the SAME color cheaper won't really impact that type of gameplay.  (This was in response to you saying that my suggestion of making getting additional spells of the same color cheaper would dramatically make the game easier.)


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Offline yllamana

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Re: If the game drags at any point, where would those points be?
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2012, 10:26:27 AM »
Maybe this belongs in a different thread, but wow, the combat! We have the difficulty set to "Hero" (the recommended level for "experienced gamers") and it feels like the enemies are massive, brainless chunks of hp that are most dangerous when they accidentally bumble into close proximity to you (because even a ranged enemy seems to typically do 5-10 times as much damage when you run into it as it does with its shots).

We don't even have time to get bored by anything else because we're so busy being bored by the combat. This is just using spells at same tier or one above the enemies, including ones that hit the enemy vulnerability.

If you want to talk about bubble-popping fun, I think multiplying enemy ranged damage by 5, dividing enemy melee damage by 2 and dividing enemy health by 4 would be a good place to start, at least on Hero difficulty.