I've never played a game this bad

[Toll]

If you want a change of pace (aside from changing the difficulty), try changing the playing style. Instead of long-range spells, go for miasma whip or leafy whip. That'll give you a completely different playing experience. It'll also be a fair bit harder, since you have to be in their faces a lot more... I can all but guarantee you that you won't kill an Overlord with a tier one miasma whip!

[Terraziel]

Would it be balanced if certain spells could be combined, but come with their damage and effects being a tier lower then the two were separate, while maintaining the mana cost?

Depends on how you mean combined, but personally this is the sort of thing I see as a part of the same spell tree dynamic mentioned above, simply give the "combined" spell the two originals as the pre-requisite.

Obviously doing this in a more generally manner would be considerably more complex to create and balance.

[Professor Paul1290]

What a bloody mess.****

There are two schools of thoughts going on:

One wants a reward for fighting enemies.

The other want to punish for fighting enemies.

****I'm refering to the opposing schools of thought. Your opinions are perfectly valid.

Indeed and I do see why some people would want a direct reward for killing enemies. It's an effective way to provide short term gratification.

Personally, I'm against this mechanic because it destroys the "versatility" of enemies if that makes any sense. It does "improve" the enemies, but it sacrifices their versatility as part of something larger.

Most common sense or logical applications of "enemies" run on the idea that they are obstacles that try to prevent you from completing your objectives. This means enemies are a challenge to overcome to get to the reward they are trying to prevent you from reaching. When you provide a direct "reward" for killing enemies, you've turned them into challenges with rewards already built in. This makes fighting them better, but that's the only thing it makes better. This means that the enemies are no longer as effective as an obstacle or deterrent. It also runs on the assumption that destroying enemies is the only way towards your goal, and ignores other possibilities.

Yes, it is true that not having a reward for killing enemies turns them into purely obstacles that keep you from getting to where you want, but if you think about what enemies are supposed to be in the game's universe, this makes sense. They're "enemies", that's what they do!

They're "bad guys", and to me it makes sense that running into "bad guys" should be, well, "bad" for you! 

In some games, rewarding players directly for killing enemies makes sense because those games are purely about combat. If combat is the only thing you do and is in fact your primary objective when playing the game then yes, in those cases I believe it would make sense. However, in the case of A Valley Without Wind, doing this would be bad for a lot of the other possibilities available in the game.

Again, this is just my opinion, obviously other people believe otherwise. It wouldn't kill the game for me if enemies started dropping useful things, but it certainly wouldn't be a positive to me.

To the point that I overlook that I still have the two spell 90% of the game feeling that it doesn't help with.

If you give players a lot of tools, they're going to pick a few they like and use them over and over again if there is a choice or consequence associated with getting said tools.

I don't think more spells or more variation is going to do much to fix this.

A way I can see to really alleviate this would be to either have more "forced variation" that intentionally blocks off certain spells at certain times, or have a large number of spells use entirely "non-mission" resources so their use is not tied to the "choices" associated with doing missions (this is already true to some degree, at least with some early tiers for some spells).

I would actually be in favor of more the latter. I think it would be nice if anything that is not a direct projectile spell did not use "mission-only" resources, that way using and maintaining them becomes completely detached from the "this or that" choice of continent tier raising missions.

[TechSY730]

It seems like many of the issues with feelings of progression for both you and the environment can be solved with several things.

• More content, especially with spell variety (and the aforementioned "branching" progression of spells, this may require refactoring some of the older spells into a new unlock progression)
• Enemy variety
• Better reward for diversity of spells (which implies making using more than two spells less awkward to execute), AND better advertise the fact that this can be effective
• Expand enemy behavior, especially for higher level enemies. This includes fixing bugs where enemies don't do behaviors like they should (the the also aforementioned enemies stop shooting when outside of their detection range bug, or that higher difficulty levels aren't effecting enemy behavior as much as they are supposed to), and bugs related to why higher teirs of enemies seem to have the same behavior as lower tiers, even when they are supposed to have new behaviors
• More variety and "intelligence" in room generation (like the new types of walls and floors suggestion)
• More "drop" and "stash room" rewards
• Balance pass on the spells and enemies
• Make the first continent not quite so restrictive in content, as it is a first impression

Also, there are already existent threads dealing with exploration, combat, and character progression, including improving their "feel", and as mentioned, the devs are hard at work trying to make these better.

Should much of this been dealt with before declaring the game 1.0? Probably. Was the game released "incomplete" like DiscOH (the OP) stated? IMHO, yes, it was, in the similar sense that AI War 4.000 and 5.000 were (though for AI War, that was more of a problem of polish and balance, not as much due to lack of content).

Do I believe that they can fix this? Yes, just like they have with AI War (and quite marvelously well at that). But it will be painful for "early adopters" in the mean time.
Again, I think part of the blame needs to go to the distributor model for not allowing indie developers to engage in "Valve time" for longer, but I can understand the profitability problem with doing that.

About the whole rewards from enemies vs. exploration thing.
I don't really know. Should killing enemies be more rewarding than explorations? The other way around? Both approximately equally rewarding? Different schools of thought, different tastes, and I'm not sure what would fit this game or the dev's goals for it better.

[tigersfan]

It seems like many of the issues with feelings of progression for both you and the environment can be solved with several things.

• More content, especially with spell variety (and the aforementioned "branching" progression of spells, this may require refactoring some of the older spells into a new unlock progression)
• Enemy variety
• Better reward for diversity of spells (which implies making using more than two spells less awkward to execute), AND better advertise the fact that this can be effective
• Expand enemy behavior, especially for higher level enemies. This includes fixing bugs where enemies don't do behaviors like they should (the the also aforementioned enemies stop shooting when outside of their detection range bug, or that higher difficulty levels aren't effecting enemy behavior as much as they are supposed to), and bugs related to why higher teirs of enemies seem to have the same behavior as lower tiers, even when they are supposed to have new behaviors
• More variety and "intelligence" in room generation (like the new types of walls and floors suggestion)
• More "drop" and "stash room" rewards
• Balance pass on the spells and enemies
• Make the first continent not quite so restrictive in content, as it is a first impression

A lot of these we're already planning on doing, some of them very soon.

[eRe4s3r]

What would you prefer? Noting that any art changing each tier is out of the question as the devs have limited resources (both in the computer sense and the personnel sense), rather to put it in perspective I think the highest tier you can reach in the game is 14

Do higher tier spells get more unique effects or art differences? That would go a long way. So for example a higher tier spell slows, or chains lightning, or a melee attack *gasp* gives some health vampirism.

Chris has stated that higher tier spells will not get unique art assets as that is too time consuming among other reasons, I'd have to drag up the billonth thread we've had on this request.

King

Ok, but what about spell effects? Is that too time consuming?

<There is a reason why its suggested so often>

At least 3 times by me, no less ;p 

Sadly, It seems making the spell effects better is not regarded as a solution to any problem, when clearly apparently, many people want progression in their spells besides LEVEL 4 spell and LEVEL 5 spell in the description...

To fix, spell effects need to become more advanced, better defined, and easier to make (external tool working on an fully external file in best case). Also proper physics need to become implemented for spells so we can actually do rock-slides, ice storms that freeze stuff, etc. And spell effects need to gain ability to change map sprite tiles, freeze water. Effect background, leave trace effects behind.. etc. The spell effects are simply "only there", they are not "WOW" they are not "Cool new toy" ... they are too simple. Other games really went all out with spell effects and a big part of that is a REALLY advanced particle scripting system. Trails, gravity, collision, gliding, falling, sticking, all these things are things spell effects need to be able to do. Not to mention beams! non linear curves for changing of effects (brightness, color, etc) but also scale, in all 3 directions over time. ;p (can only be solved via keyframing + curve progression definitions for values)

As all my suggestions relating to this where rebuked, i have somehow given up on it by now.

This topic is just a repeat of baleurs topic really, just with more words and after release.

Yeah, sorry for Quote sniping that out of the topic... other things are important too, this is just the thing I care about ;P

[chemical_art]

At least 3 times by me, no less ;p 

Sadly, It seems making the spell effects better is not regarded as a solution to any problem, when clearly apparently, many people want progression in their spells besides LEVEL 4 spell and LEVEL 5 spell in the description...

To fix, spell effects need to become more advanced, better defined, and easier to make (external tool working on an fully external file in best case). Also proper physics need to become implemented for spells so we can actually do rock-slides, ice storms that freeze stuff, etc. And spell effects need to gain ability to change map sprite tiles, freeze water. Effect background, leave trace effects behind.. etc. The spell effects are simply "only there", they are not "WOW" they are not "Cool new toy" ... they are too simple. Other games really went all out with spell effects and a big part of that is a REALLY advanced particle scripting system. Trails, gravity, collision, gliding, falling, sticking, all these things are things spell effects need to be able to do. Not to mention beams! non linear curves for changing of effects (brightness, color, etc) but also scale, in all 3 directions over time. ;p (can only be solved via keyframing + curve progression definitions for values)

As all my suggestions relating to this where rebuked, i have somehow given up on it by now.

This topic is just a repeat of baleurs topic really, just with more words and after release.

I guess it goes with the design philosophy of the spells.

Rather then make a few spells, each that gets more amazing as it is progressed, there is rather the current mix of many spells, each a little cool and different but don't grow into anything special.

*shrug*

I'd have prefer the FFII style of spells, where the animation changes with every squared number, for example 1, 2 , 4 , 9 , 16... but alas, the epic spell of continent 5 looks the same as when you first learned it in continent one. And it has the same effects. And since the spells apparently does the same amount of relative damage if the enemy and the tier of enemy is the same, all that different is the monster sprite.

[Martyn van Buren]

What

[bvchaosinc]

The issue with using baddies as part of the levels challenge is that out side of missions they can always be bypassed as their is no where you NEED to go.  Trying to get resource X in room Y, but you enter an area you are not sure you can will make it threw.  Then you just turn around a leave and look for another room X in a different building. 

The metroidvania formula works because you must pass challenge room A to get upgrade B so you can enter wing C.  This only applies in this game during missions. Most of which are fairly great.   Unfortunately at any level of difficult that is challenging getting ready to do missions currently means a lot of explore-o-grinding.  If you like doing that then great, but give those that like to murder their way around town the option to do that instead.  You should get no more for killing mobs for an hour than ransacking houses for an hour, but I would like the option to choose how I spend my time.       

[TechSY730]

Oh, are their any plans to add new bosses/tweak spawn chances and distribution of existing bosses?
One of the complaints is that almost everything boss related is pretty much just a robot or a giant blob. There are fairies every now and then, and on very rare occasion, something different like a dragon, but an overwhelming amount of the time, a robot or a blob. (Note, For the purposes of this discussion, I am lumping together boss chance per region type and region type chance. Like for example (pulling numbers out of the air), if a boss in the lava flats has 80% chance to be a dragon, but a tile only has a 5% chance of being a lava flats area, then from a user experience perspective, bosses only have a 4% chance of being a dragon)

[TechSY730]

You should get no more for killing mobs for an hour than ransacking houses for an hour, but I would like the option to choose how I spend my time.       

Ah, the monster killing and exploration should be about equally rewarding school of thought.

Upon further reflection, while this may be the toughest to balance, it is also probably the best way to satisfy both crowds.

[LintMan]

It seems like many of the issues with feelings of progression for both you and the environment can be solved with several things.

I generally agree on most of these, but to add my 2 cents:

• More content, especially with spell variety (and the aforementioned "branching" progression of spells, this may require refactoring some of the older spells into a new unlock progression)

The problem with just having more spells is that they are already lot of grind to get if you want a large variety of them, especially if you need to get them up to Tier 4 or 5.  And since you can only do 5 main missions before tiering up, until you can do all you want at tier 5, that's pretty much the best time to upgrade them.  So the game currently encourages targeting and specializing a a small number of spells rather than experimenting.   

The exisiting spells could possibly use a bit more differentiation, but IMHO I'd personally prefer the game first make accessing the entire exisiting variety of spells less grindy before adding more spells.

• More variety and "intelligence" in room generation (like the new types of walls and floors suggestion)

This would be cool, but for me, caves are far more in need of variety than building rooms are: They're much bigger, more difficult to cross, and usually have far more area to uncover, so you generally need to spend a whole lot more time in them, but they're all pretty much the same - not a lot to see or get or do, unless you REALLY like platforming.

Should much of this been dealt with before declaring the game 1.0? Probably. Was the game released "incomplete" like DiscOH (the OP) stated? IMHO, yes, it was, in the similar sense that AI War 4.000 and 5.000 were (though for AI War, that was more of a problem of polish and balance, not as much due to lack of content).

I disagree about the game being incomplete.  It overall feels like a lot of content to me, even if some aspects could use more variety.  I certainly don't feel shortchanged, as the OP seems to.   There's plenty of stuff I'd like to see changed or improved, but I'm probably already approaching the amount of time in this game as I spent on minecraft, so that's not doing too bad.

[TechSY730]

It seems like many of the issues with feelings of progression for both you and the environment can be solved with several things.

I generally agree on most of these, but to add my 2 cents:

• More content, especially with spell variety (and the aforementioned "branching" progression of spells, this may require refactoring some of the older spells into a new unlock progression)

The problem with just having more spells is that they are already lot of grind to get if you want a large variety of them, especially if you need to get them up to Tier 4 or 5.  And since you can only do 5 main missions before tiering up, until you can do all you want at tier 5, that's pretty much the best time to upgrade them.  So the game currently encourages targeting and specializing a a small number of spells rather than experimenting.   

The exisiting spells could possibly use a bit more differentiation, but IMHO I'd personally prefer the game first make accessing the entire exisiting variety of spells less grindy before adding more spells.

Making spell types easier to get. I'd support that.

• More variety and "intelligence" in room generation (like the new types of walls and floors suggestion)

This would be cool, but for me, caves are far more in need of variety than building rooms are: They're much bigger, more difficult to cross, and usually have far more area to uncover, so you generally need to spend a whole lot more time in them, but they're all pretty much the same - not a lot to see or get or do, unless you REALLY like platforming.

I should of been more clear. When I said room generation, I meant generation of areas in general, indoor rooms, caves, outdoors, et al.

But yea, caves are especially needy of some room generation improvements/variety

[chemical_art]

You should get no more for killing mobs for an hour than ransacking houses for an hour, but I would like the option to choose how I spend my time.       

Ah, the monster killing and exploration should be about equally rewarding school of thought.

Upon further reflection, while this may be the toughest to balance, it is also probably the best way to satisfy both crowds.

+1

I know the goal of the game is to not grind. But with the current state of affairs it is a grind. The grind is running through rooms dodging monsters to get goodies. Not my idea of exploration of carefully going through areas killing threats and exploring.

[Bluddy]

Sounds like the idea I mantis'ed of getting upgrade stones from monsters once in a while, and finding big numbers in stashes.