I've never played a game this bad

[KingIsaacLinksr]

What would you prefer? Noting that any art changing each tier is out of the question as the devs have limited resources (both in the computer sense and the personnel sense), rather to put it in perspective I think the highest tier you can reach in the game is 14

Do higher tier spells get more unique effects or art differences? That would go a long way. So for example a higher tier spell slows, or chains lightning, or a melee attack *gasp* gives some health vampirism.

Chris has stated that higher tier spells will not get unique art assets as that is too time consuming among other reasons, I'd have to drag up the billonth thread we've had on this request.

King

[chemical_art]

What would you prefer? Noting that any art changing each tier is out of the question as the devs have limited resources (both in the computer sense and the personnel sense), rather to put it in perspective I think the highest tier you can reach in the game is 14

Do higher tier spells get more unique effects or art differences? That would go a long way. So for example a higher tier spell slows, or chains lightning, or a melee attack *gasp* gives some health vampirism.

Chris has stated that higher tier spells will not get unique art assets as that is too time consuming among other reasons, I'd have to drag up the billonth thread we've had on this request.

King

Ok, but what about spell effects? Is that too time consuming?

<There is a reason why its suggested so often>

[Toll]

Added effects on higher tiers means that (with the current system) everything would become easier and easier instead of the other way around.

[chemical_art]

Added effects on higher tiers means that (with the current system) everything would become easier and easier instead of the other way around.

Would it? Don't the enemies get new abilities as well?

Or are you saying that as you progress through the game you use the same spells with improved stats against the same enemies with new stats?

*when I say same enemies, i mean the same in that bats are always the same bats but with better stats, etc.


That seems...monotonous. Please tell me I'm wrong.

[Terraziel]

Ok, but what about spell effects? Is that too time consuming?

<There is a reason why its suggested so often>

I think the problem there is that adding effects to old spells limits what you can do with new spells.

Rather instead of adding a chain buff to higher tiers of lightning, they could just add a chain lightning spell and avoid balance issues from trying to combine them.

Added effects on higher tiers means that (with the current system) everything would become easier and easier instead of the other way around.

Would it? Don't the enemies get new abilities as well?

Or are you saying that as you progress through the game you use the same spells with improved stats against the same enemies with new stats?

*when I say same enemies, i mean the same in that bats are always the same bats but with better stats, etc.


That seems...monotonous. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Currently it works as Bats are Bats, you kill enough of them You get Fire Bats, well done new enemy type, kill a few more Bats and they get replaced with Elite Bats, but the system has an end point.

[tigersfan]

That is exactly how AVWW works, you are working to increase your Spell tiers (weapons), enchants (equipment) and character upgrades so that you can take on the overlord. What more do you want?

A feeling of advancement, when your move up a tier nothing changes, you look the same, your spells look and act the same, the baddies look and act the same, and my goals seem to be the same except N+1.

But, as you advance and do missions, you open the door to new spells. If you aren't aiming for the newer spells, is that the game's fault?

[Professor Paul1290]

I can kill 50 bats and get fire bats, and kill 50 firebats to get even badder fireball shooting bats. But wait a sec, killing bats doesn't get me loot. Killing bats doesn't get me xp. And the more I kill them, the tougher they get, and the tougher they get the longer it will take me to reach my goal (killing the overlord).

See, I genuinely disagree that this is a problem. Perhaps to be more descriptive, I see why you might not like it that way, but I strongly disagree with the implied solution.

I don't believe in enemies dropping loot, granting xp, or generally giving a direct reward for killing them. Many games have had this mechanic, and some of those games are my favorite games, but still I never liked this mechanic and every often I dislike it in games that I like. There are a few cases where I thought it was justified, but I don't see that here.

When you make enemies give you something useful then they become self-contained challenges with reward in themselves. This might sound nice, but the problem with this is that this actively punishes you for not fighting them and runs on the assumption that fighting them should be essential. This is a very narrow assumption that doesn't work when it makes sense for combat to be avoided or averted in any way.

Wind Shelter missions, Stealth Assasination, NPC rescue, and other such missions don't explicitly encourage direct combat, and that I believe would be somewhat harmed by a mechanic that directly rewards the killing of enemies.

Same exact thing with the tier system. Suddenly all the monsters I've been fighting got tougher. Not only tougher, but with each tier they get stronger faster than your best spells can keep up.
Think back to an old game, say, dragon warrior for NES. You're near the starter town fighting slimes. You gain a few levels, use the gold you obtained to get better gear. You feel pretty good about yourself, ready to take on bigger challenges. But wait, as soon as you step out of town, the same slimes you've been killing left and right are suddenly kicking your butt! You can use pretty words to dress up the game mechanic in this game, but fundamentally it makes as much sense as my example, and just as satisfying.

The average computer game goes like this: You overcome challenge, get rewarded with better equipment, levels, xp and whatnot, then you use that to overcome a bigger challenge and the cycle keeps repeating.

Again, here I see why you have a problem with how it works, but I STRONGLY disagree with your implied solution to the problem.

In this case I prefer the way it works now over the more typical system you describe. I like that my enemy becomes more powerful because it forces me to make decisions about how I want to keep up. It motivates me to do things to mitigate it (such as building wind shelters) and makes me more careful about which missions I take on before raising continent tier.

I like that the monsters sometimes get stronger faster than my spells can keep up, because to me that's the game punishing me for my bad decisions. When I make bad decisions and don't think ahead I want the game to punish me for it.


I'm not saying you're wrong, you've pointed out things you probably genuinely don't like. What I am saying is that I disagree with you because some of the implied "fixes" to the "problems" you describe in some ways go against what I want out of the game.

Applying the implied "fixes" would make the game better for you, but it wouldn't make the game better for me.

[chemical_art]

Ok, but what about spell effects? Is that too time consuming?

<There is a reason why its suggested so often>

I think the problem there is that adding effects to old spells limits what you can do with new spells.

Rather instead of adding a chain buff to higher tiers of lightning, they could just add a chain lightning spell and avoid balance issues from trying to combine them.

Added effects on higher tiers means that (with the current system) everything would become easier and easier instead of the other way around.

Would it? Don't the enemies get new abilities as well?

Or are you saying that as you progress through the game you use the same spells with improved stats against the same enemies with new stats?

*when I say same enemies, i mean the same in that bats are always the same bats but with better stats, etc.


That seems...monotonous. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Currently it works as Bats are Bats, you kill enough of them You get Fire Bats, well done new enemy type, kill a few more Bats and they get replaced with Elite Bats, but the system has an end point.

I see.

I see the earlier person's post about patterns then.

The game as all these wonderful enemies, regions, spells, bosses, etc. But if you have seen one, you have seen it all. That fire spell is always going to be a fire spell. That lightning spell is always going to be a lightning spell. That god darn is always that same bat.

There is no...expansion.

The problem with the spells is that you can add new ones, yes. But the vast majority of time due to ease of use you stick with two spells. What those two spells are are up to you, but unless you treat it like a strategy game and frequently pause to setup new spells you generally make use of those 2 spells except in unusual situations.

There is little feeling of advancement.

"Yea! My spell does twice as much damage. Oh wait, the enemies are twice as tough."

"Yea! I'm fighting the next level of enemy! Oh wait, they still use the same tactics."

[chemical_art]

I can kill 50 bats and get fire bats, and kill 50 firebats to get even badder fireball shooting bats. But wait a sec, killing bats doesn't get me loot. Killing bats doesn't get me xp. And the more I kill them, the tougher they get, and the tougher they get the longer it will take me to reach my goal (killing the overlord).

See, I genuinely disagree that this is a problem. Perhaps to be more descriptive, I see why you might not like it that way, but I strongly disagree with the implied solution.

I don't believe in enemies dropping loot, granting xp, or generally giving a direct reward for killing them. Many games have had this mechanic, and some of those games are my favorite games, but still I never liked this mechanic and every often I dislike it in games that I like. There are a few cases where I thought it was justified, but I don't see that here.

When you make enemies give you something useful then they become self-contained challenges with reward in themselves. This might sound nice, but the problem with this is that this actively punishes you for not fighting them and runs on the assumption that fighting them should be essential. This is a very narrow assumption that doesn't work when it makes sense for combat to be avoided or averted in any way.

Wind Shelter missions, Stealth Assasination, NPC rescue, and other such missions don't explicitly encourage direct combat, and that I believe would be somewhat harmed by a mechanic that directly rewards the killing of enemies.

Same exact thing with the tier system. Suddenly all the monsters I've been fighting got tougher. Not only tougher, but with each tier they get stronger faster than your best spells can keep up.
Think back to an old game, say, dragon warrior for NES. You're near the starter town fighting slimes. You gain a few levels, use the gold you obtained to get better gear. You feel pretty good about yourself, ready to take on bigger challenges. But wait, as soon as you step out of town, the same slimes you've been killing left and right are suddenly kicking your butt! You can use pretty words to dress up the game mechanic in this game, but fundamentally it makes as much sense as my example, and just as satisfying.

The average computer game goes like this: You overcome challenge, get rewarded with better equipment, levels, xp and whatnot, then you use that to overcome a bigger challenge and the cycle keeps repeating.

Again, here I see why you have a problem with how it works, but I STRONGLY disagree with your implied solution to the problem.

In this case I prefer the way it works now over the more typical system you describe. I like that my enemy becomes more powerful because it forces me to make decisions about how I want to keep up. It motivates me to do things to mitigate it (such as building wind shelters) and makes me more careful about which missions I take on before raising continent tier.

I like that the monsters sometimes get stronger faster than my spells can keep up, because to me that's the game punishing me for my bad decisions. When I make bad decisions and don't think ahead I want the game to punish me for it.


I'm not saying you're wrong, you've pointed out things you probably genuinely don't like. What I am saying is that I disagree with you because some of the implied "fixes" to the "problems" you describe in some ways go against what I want out of the game.

Applying the implied "fixes" would make the game better for you, but it wouldn't make the game better for me.

What a bloody mess.****

There are two schools of thoughts going on:

One wants a reward for fighting enemies.

The other want to punish for fighting enemies.

****I'm refering to the opposing schools of thought. Your opinions are perfectly valid.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Your goal is to take out the overlord, that's why your spells get more powerful and your character is getting enhanced, for that goal. If the monsters got easier, then the game would get dull, that's why the world adapts to you.

King

[Terraziel]

This thread is getting very quote heavy.....

There is no...expansion.

The problem with the spells is that you can add new ones, yes. But the vast majority of time due to ease of use you stick with two spells. What those two spells are are up to you, but unless you treat it like a strategy game and frequently pause to setup new spells you generally make use of those 2 spells except in unusual situations.

There is little feeling of advancement.

"Yea! My spell does twice as much damage. Oh wait, the enemies are twice as tough."

"Yea! I'm fighting the next level of enemy! Oh wait, they still use the same tactics."

Yes, it is a problem, but it is a problem that can be rectified with more content, if for example more of the spells had the Launch Rock\Launch Meteor\Rockslide dynamic then I think many of the complaints could be dealt with.

For those who don't use said spells it works like this.

Once you acquire Tier 2 Launch Rock you can craft Rockslide an entirely different style of spell that launch multiple projectiles upwards rather than firing a single projectile at your target.

Once you acquire Tier 3 Launch Rock you can craft Launch Meteor, a higher damage higher cooldown variation of it, which then progress along it is own tier arc, leaving you with the option to continue using Launch Rock or switch to Launch Meteor.

For enemies, the Bat, Fire Bat, Ice bat and then elite version dynamic is about as good as you can get.

[chemical_art]

Yes, it is a problem, but it is a problem that can be rectified with more content, if for example more of the spells had the Launch Rock\Launch Meteor\Rockslide dynamic then I think many of the complaints could be dealt with.

For those who don't use said spells it works like this.

Once you acquire Tier 2 Launch Rock you can craft Rockslide an entirely different style of spell that launch multiple projectiles upwards rather than firing a single projectile at your target.

Once you acquire Tier 3 Launch Rock you can craft Launch Meteor, a higher damage higher cooldown variation of it, which then progress along it is own tier arc, leaving you with the option to continue using Launch Rock or switch to Launch Meteor.

Yes, that would work nicely. It gives exactly what I describe. By powering up spells, you in the end get access to spells that unlock new effects.

Is there a spell tree to clearly show this progression?

[Toll]

You can go into the crafting grimoire to see what spells require what. I think that "tree" is the only one that exists right now though.

[chemical_art]

You can go into the crafting grimoire to see what spells require what. I think that "tree" is the only one that exists right now though.

Well that is a shame. Because that is the first example that I heard that made me think "Yes, I feel like I'm building up something that isn't more of the same."

To the point that I overlook that I still have the two spell 90% of the game feeling that it doesn't help with.

[chemical_art]

Would it be balanced if certain spells could be combined, but come with their damage and effects being a tier lower then the two were separate, while maintaining the mana cost?