I've never played a game this bad

[zebramatt]

This is a ludicrous thread, I really must say!

Edit: I'm sorry, that was glib. Allow me to elaborate.

DiscOH: I'm not sure what you hope to achieve here. You didn't like the game, and you appear to have reasons for disliking it which are immensely compelling to you. Fair enough - everyone's different. You want to make your opinion known. OK, that's fine. The internet is a great enabler for that. And you obviously feel bitter about buying the game and have some gripe with... someone? The developers, perhaps? The community, maybe? I'm not clear on that point but the venom in some of your last statements there is clear.

But what you don't want is to entertain the idea that the game might have any redeeming qualities. Nor do you find it conceivable that anyone with any sense might actually enjoy it. Finally, you certainly don't want to enter into discourse about how it might be improved in light of your criticisms.

So I would ask the question: why come here? What do you have to gain? Do you hope members of the community might see the error of their ways? Do you seek some form of moral vindication - retribution, perhaps? Is it an apology from the developers you're looking for? Or maybe to break the resolve of an outfit you wish to see scuppered? Perhaps it's a smear campaign on their doorstep?

I'm left frankly confused. You seem neither placated by attempts to reconcile your problems with the game in a constructive fashion; nor encouraged by the support you have rallied in some specific areas. Regardless of anyone's response, you appear dedicated to a roadmap of simple denigration.

In short, as I say, I simply find the thread ludicrous.

[chemical_art]

Enemies can't be passed, that's intentional as well because previously it was sometimes easier to cheese them by just running through enemies and ignoring them rather than stopping to fight. Getting backed into a corridor by an enemy you can't kill is pretty much a valid way to die. I don't think that indicates a problem, it just means you got overwhelmed and died. That's part of the game too.

I think it's a valid way to die as well.

If you want to avoid it, that's what spells like Shields, Splash Back, and Teleport are for. (which means other spells having utility!)

Lots of this thread is over my head, but I'll say this:

All the wonderful spells don't mean a thing if you don't have them. And this situation is most common where the backed into a corner is in the beginning when you are least able to quickly kill enemies. That's when you don't have upgraded lights, lowest mana and health, and general inexperience.

Backed into a corner is a valid way, I guess. Because with the whole game consisting of kiting, its the only way to die. So that's a rub. I know its frustrating. But at the same time, its usually the only way to die.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

@Disc, you admitted to not leveling up your spells, so that's probably why your not hitting for much.  And personally, its reasonable to die that way if your spells aren't leveled up.

But to be honest, I think your comparisons to now Magicka and AVWW just doesn't work.  Terraria, maybe, because Terraria is the closest >modern< game to AVWW but even then AVWW is very very different from Terraria. 

At this point, there's not much more I can say.  The game will be improved on a very regular and quick basis for the forseeable future and will continue to work on these problems as well as adding more content and features.  If you don't like the game then, we're not going to convince you.  Some people just don't like certain games.  That's the reality of it.

King

[Martyn van Buren]

Regarding OP's "every boss being skeleton" --- have you been playing only in ice age regions?  There is a rather limited selection of bosses at the minute, and they (and enemies) are divided up among different regions.  I think that crippled dragons appear in deserts and abandoned town regions (someone check me?), and then there are a few types of amoeba, as well as some water-only bosses I haven't encountered yet.  Plus giant bats and fairies underground.  Going into other regions will also give you a lot more variety of normal enemies and a lot of different mechanics.

[Professor Paul1290]

As far as the corner death let me explain the situation.  I open a door which leads to a room, I have low level light and cant see the ends on either side, there is a monster slightly to my right with ~4k health.  I hit for 80 at this point.  I begin to kite the mob to the left and immediately run into a wall that is now visible as I walk into light range of it.  I automatically die.  Its situations like this that lead to virtually every game in the genre allowing you to phase through enemies while injured.

You went into a room and gave up temporary invincibility right away.

You had access to a door and had an enemy you cannot pass and where your escape route was uncertain. You continued to fight and gave up your only known viable escape route (the door).

If you came prepared, you could have lit the room with a moon lamp or ball of light to give yourself a view of the room (the former which you get from many stash rooms and the latter which is easily available). You could have retreated and gone to another room where you wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

I believe this is enough tactical errors to make this is a valid death.

I would say something about burdens of knowledge and truly random item distribution being a terrible way to promote customization, but I think i've already talked about that enough.

Item distribution is not "random". It has random elements in it, but it largely follows a known set of rules and you can generally rely on things appearing in certain types of areas.

If you check the Planning Menu it has detailed information on where certain items occur.

In fact, the only craftable spell I've found that does anything besides damage was fire snake, that world got ruined when somebody decided to suicide ~80 times into the spawn area of the overlord though.

You would have had a number of spells available right from the beginning at the crafting station or would have only taken a few materials to craft, some which would have only taken a few minutes. The details for these are in the Planning Menu.

Secondly, did you run into multiplayer without doing the tutorial or reading the wiki first (the equivalent of "read the manual") first?

The fact that what you've said previously suggests you haven't been exploring effectively seems to point to the idea that you jumped into co-op without knowing anything about the game previously.

Its really obvious this wasn't a finished product and I'm still bitter I got tricked into buying it.

The game has trailers, the game has a wiki, the game has a demo.

You could have done your research, you could have played the demo, you could have figured out whether you would like the game before buying it. You had many chances to back out before making your purchase. I don't think anything more could have been done to make you aware that you wouldn't like the game before you made your purchase.

[Wingflier]

I challenge you to find a better designed MOBA than League. 

DotA 2 is better in pretty much every conceivable way.

Sent you a PM as not to derail the topic.

[jordot42]

I'd love to see a LoL vs. HoN vs. DOTA2 forum fight.  They are so entertaining to read!   

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I'd love to see a LoL vs. HoN vs. DOTA2 forum fight.  They are so entertaining to read!   

Preferably in the off-topic section...I don't like reading it.

King

[Martyn van Buren]

Just thinking, also, is there something you want? As in, are you hoping to get changes made to the game or a refund or something? If you ask for something directly, the devs are often incredibly responsive. Not that there's anything wrong with just wanting to express an opinion, but Arcen has (so far) a small and very friendly community and we're (we the forum members, that is, rather than we the company) not used to harsh words.

[Pakuska]

Stuff.

When I saw the thread name, and the first sentence of this thread. "I would play superman 64 to get the bad taste out of my mouth." or something along the line of that... I thought he was just a troll hating for the sake of hating, since a lot of people do that to indie games, Indie games tend to have a very protective fanboy club.

Anyway, what I want to say is that this guy actually has some points. Even if he is being extremely negative, he is giving the developers insight to flaws in the game. I dont agree with his perspective of perma death, I think its fine just the way it is now. But I do agree that the combat is just... not rewarding and gets tedious. And he has some strong points that are just complete flaws in this game. And I think the developers realize that too reading his post. And they will hopefully learn from it and try to improve these points.

Having said that.. thats usually why you have to be pretty detailed when you say you dont like something, by saying you dont like something you dont help anyone, this guy has given solid examples and explanations why he dislike the game and aspects of the game. So I would say this isnt a ludicrous thread, I would say the opposite. Its a very helpfull thread to the Dev's if you look past his bitterness, and angry attitude.

[BobTheJanitor]

Its a very helpfull thread to the Dev's if you look past his bitterness, and angry attitude.

Don't worry, they surely will. I remain amazed at the thickness of their skin sometimes, but people have stopped by these forums before to do a drive by 'I hate this about your game' post and then ended up staying on and becoming friendly members of the community. I think zebramatt's post was just expressing general exasperation with the fact that although there have been some pretty valid answers, or at least constructive discussion on all the points he has raised, his attitude appears to remain one of simply trash talking everything about the game. So while the criticism is perfectly valid, and no one can have a wrong opinion, at some point you have to either decide that you want your criticism to be constructive, and help to suggest meaningful changes to the game, or admit that it's not and never will be the game for you and just go home.

Everyone around here is pretty open to constructive suggestions, even if they're couched in harsh tones, but if it just boils down to 'you suck' bullying, at a certain point you've got to stop wasting your time and go do something more productive.

And while I'm the first to admit that Arcen games probably does have a protective fanboy club, that sort of society doesn't arise in a vacuum. If we're protective and fanboy-ish, it's because this group of devs have given us reasons to be. We're all here because we really do like one or more of their games, and we find their method of listening to and working with their customers to be outstanding. No one here is blind to the flaws in the game, in fact most anything that anyone can bring up now, we've probably already hashed over for pages and pages several months ago. We don't accept the way things are out of blind devotion, but because we already know all the reasoning that brought things to the state that they're currently in, and because we know their track record on game improvement and that anything that bothers us now will likely be fixed or changed in a week or a month or so.

[Misery]

The problems that I was talking about were mostly design based, not bug based.  There are so many obvious flaws (every boss being a skeleton?) that its honestly hard for me to understand why people play AVWW other than brand loyalty, and everybody I know who's had the misfortune to play it says pretty much the same thing.  So many games do the level up to infinity concept better, so many games do random dungeons better, so many games do exploration better.  Its really obvious this wasn't a finished product and I'm still bitter I got tricked into buying it.

You find it hard to understand why people play this?

I'll tell you why:  Because most of us HONESTLY ENJOY IT.   Quite alot, actually.

Oh, the game's not perfect, of course. Balance issues and bugs.  Buuuuut..... I think many of us went into it EXPECTING that.  I know I did, after having done as much PC gaming as I have.

Really though, stop talking about your OPINION as if it is actual fact.   Because it isnt.

You keep comparing the game to Terraria.   And saying how much better that one was, and blahblahblah.   Now, I liked Terraria decently enough..... for a time.   Generally, I love Minecraft, and most of the games that take after it.   But I ended up finding..... quite alot of problems in Terraria after some time with it.    For instance, I SERIOUSLY do not think that Terraria handles exploration well.   Not at all.  Why?  Because of the stupid way it generates caves;  ALOT of exploration time ends up being digging.   Digging VERY SLOWLY through 8 kersquillion tiny bricks (and that's WITH explosives and high-level digging equipment, mind you.  Still takes WAY TOO LONG.)   Because, aside from the underground forest biome, the game tends to stick underground walls and dead-ends EVERYWHERE.   The digging is extremely tedious, and the amount of ores required to actually make something concievably useful is a little.... silly.   There's also very little to do, comparatively, ABOVE ground, aside from getting the meteorite stuff and a few other things that dont take long at all, or soon lead into MORE underground digging.   And, after all of this, eventually, you reach a point in the game where you have pretty much everything.  You've gotten all of the best items, defeated ALL of the bosses.   Unlike Minecraft, it does NOT have alot of replayability, which is the biggest complaint I've heard with the game.

I could keep listing stuff here, but I'll stop.   I'm only trying to make a point:   That good/bad, in situations like this, really ARE just opinion.  The MOBAs you mention, for instance; hate them.   Hate them ALL.  Utterly horrid genre (to me, anyway).  But see, I'm aware that that is just my opinion.   Do I really honestly think any individual game in that is BAD?  No, I dont.   I just know they're not for me.  I'm sure they're fine games for those that ARE into the genre.   And Terraria up there, I dont have anything against either.  I had some fun with it in my long playthrough, I just dont see any reason to go BACK to it.  And you sure as heck dont have to agree with my opinions and thoughts on it, and I'm not about to start TRYING to make you agree.

As for this game though, well, if you dont like it, then you dont like it.   That's fine.   Not everyone is going to, just as with any other game.   But still, dont just leap onto the forums for the game in question and start bashing it.  Wont have much effect other than bothering people.   And really, why didn't you just try the demo for the game?   The demo is very good at showing what the game is really like, to make it nice and easy to make a decision on it.


I think there are a few odd balance issues with this game (and bugs), but really, I think this one is definitely hitting the potential that it was showing in beta.    Tweaking of various numbers and stats and things will likely come sooner or later, and it'll get better yet.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Alright guys, I think he gets the point by now.  Unless he has something constructive to say, lets let the thread die. 

#justtryingtokeepthepeace

King

[DiscOH]

Regarding OP's "every boss being skeleton" --- have you been playing only in ice age regions?  There is a rather limited selection of bosses at the minute, and they (and enemies) are divided up among different regions.  I think that crippled dragons appear in deserts and abandoned town regions (someone check me?), and then there are a few types of amoeba, as well as some water-only bosses I haven't encountered yet.  Plus giant bats and fairies underground.  Going into other regions will also give you a lot more variety of normal enemies and a lot of different mechanics.

I wasn't really paying attention to the terrain because I was busy blowing up all the evil castles, in hindsight though, yes its all been snow.  Is this not normally the case?

Edit: just went to the grass lands to test this out, fought some giant water ball.  It has basically the same problem the skeleton has.  Very simple AI, low movement, one attack.  These things could be basic mobs and the game wouldn't be changed significantly.

[Wanderer]

It can be.  The ice ages are all from the same epoch, and thus typically have the same main creatures/bosses.  In the different regions you'll find different bosses.  For example, one of the last lieutenants I killed was one of the young dragons.