Author Topic: I've never played a game this bad  (Read 19498 times)

Offline DiscOH

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2012, 06:50:06 pm »
So I'm doing another playthrough with an expert world.

I like that the combat perfectionist mission doesn't kill you, but fall damage being lethal makes the mission slow and tiresome.  I had one notable experience where the mission started with me surrounded by enemies who instantly killed me.

I'm really hoping some of these spells start granting utility, because so far there has been no reason to cast anything but Energy Orb+Ball lightning (Longest Range/Best Damage Per Mana).

I also think its silly how upgrading mana doesn't seem to increase regeneration speeds.  Why would anybody choose to upgrade it given that information?


(I'm not saying it's perfect, but a lot of people love this game a _lot_, effusively so, so I figure you're probably missing something somewhere).

A lot of people fanatically love Rise of Immortals.  That doesn't make Petroglyph's game any less bad.

Offline tigersfan

  • Arcen Games Contractor
  • Arcen Staff
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,599
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2012, 06:54:45 pm »
If you're able to take down the Overlord with just tier I spells, then you really do have the difficulty too low. There is a statue/shrine thing in the settlement that you can use to increase the combat difficulty if you want to try that. (This is different than starting in an expert world, which should help too).

As for the mana upgrades and why would someone want to do it? Well, because some of the characters in the game simply don't have enough to cast some of the bigger/more damaging spells, even if they have full mana.

As far as spells granting utility, there aren't a lot of them, but there is "Ride the Lightning", which is a lot of fun, IMO.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2012, 06:56:06 pm »
To be fair, "good" and "bad" is just an opinion.

I think League of Legends is a terrible game but it's got several million players.  Your criteria may differ from other people's.  Some of the things you mentioned, other people might consider qualities.  Grinding for example is pretty much a staple of modern-day MMORPGs for a reason.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline tigersfan

  • Arcen Games Contractor
  • Arcen Staff
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,599
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2012, 06:58:20 pm »
To be fair, "good" and "bad" is just an opinion.

I think League of Legends is a terrible game but it's got several million players.  Your criteria may differ from other people's.  Some of the things you mentioned, other people might consider qualities.  Grinding for example is pretty much a staple of modern-day MMORPGs for a reason.

Yes, yes it is, and I don't play them because I dislike grinding. But obviously others do like it, since there is so much money being spent on it. Which just re-inforces your point Wingflier.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2012, 06:59:01 pm »
(Note, I am not a developer. When I say things are acknowledged or planned, I am saying it to the best of my recollection of previous developer feedback)

For the interesting platforming stuff.
Not all rooms are randomly generated. There is a chance that a room will use a built-in template. These rooms can provide some very interesting platforming challenges. It's just that there isn't a terribly huge variety of pre-built rooms yet (yes, there is a lot, but not enough to keep things "feeling" fresh over long periods of playtime)
If you head over to the modding forum, they have a room builder tool you can build cool rooms in, submit it, and possibly get it added to the list of possible room templates.
As for the other stuff, some of this is simply room generation glitches (the door places you inside an enemy or crate or something is a known bug). Some of this can be fixed by adding more "patterns" to the room generator, and some of it can be fixed by the already mentioned pre-designed rooms (though their spawn rate might need to go up, and probably rooms for caves need to be added, although they should be built with a different overall shape in mind)

For the upgrades stuff
There is already a post discussing ways to ease the pain of upgrading and specializing. It's just been pointed out that how character death is handled factors into this question as well. You are not the first to note this.

For the monotony of gaining stuff
As has been touched on here, avoiding killing monsters to unlock stuff in favor of explorations was almost certainly taken too far. Maybe there can be a chance to get stuff from monsters, I don't know. Monster drops have also been discussed, but nothing has been implemented yet.
Some of this discussion could be moved to a new thread, or possibly the existing thread about how to make exploration less of a "grind".

However, I would like to touch on something not many people have commented on yet:

I think the issue was that he used the same tactic to defeat the bosses.

He said repeatedly it consisted of shooting off screen at max range.

Boosting difficulty would encourage this tactic even more, I think.


I think his rub overall was that the game was very random yet monotonous. Death could occur quickly and hard yet upgrades are random and don't "build up" as visibly as other games do. On reflection, I admit I get that vibe too after a few hours of play.

This was exactly my problem.

You're right. The game emphases ranged, aimed projectiles heavily. That is fine. But, it doesn't give much in terms of other combat abilities, to either players or enemies.
There are melee spells, but they are oddly expensive right now (already been noted in another thread, MP cost differentiation and balance is another thing on the to-do list), and not terribly much in terms of variety (there are only like, what, 4 melee spells?)
There are arcing spells, and they can work pretty well, but their effective range tends to be crud.
There is a homing spell, haven't tried it though.
There are "rooted where I am at" AOE spells, but again, lowish variety (not sure about the costs though, haven't tried them much)
There are shield spells, but they are expensive and awkward to use. Thankfully, there is a (by default unbound) keybind that maps to the first shield spell you have, making it much less fiddly to use, but that doesn't fix the cost issue.
I think there is a ranged AOE spell or two, but they are crazy expensive.
And although there are some very good utility/logistics ability/spells already, I agree that there could be more of them.
Anyways, more variety of spells is planned too.

Although adding new tools for combat for players is great, almost everything in the game uses either a weak melee or uses a "straight line" projectile. This sort of hampers variety in battle too. I'd love to see more enemies that use arced projectiles, high level melee attacks, traps, and even defensive abilities
Also, I agree that skelebot's are spammed in too many regions currently, but that is partially due to a lack of variety of enemy types and skelebots are a "placeholder" for regions that have not had their entire "suite" of enemies developed yet. More enemy types is also on the todo list.

So yes, this game still has lots of "kinks" to work out, some quite major. However, I think this game is pretty good even as it is now.

Though, it would be interesting to see a "fly through the rings" mission type. :P

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2012, 07:01:12 pm »
Spells with more utility or varying effects (spread, bouncing, ricochet, heat seeking, whatever) is, I believe, one of the things on the list for future updates, it just wasn't doable before 1.0 had to get out the door. Hang around a while and I'm sure the spell variety will improve beyond just different colored lights at varying speeds.

The mana regen vs. overall mana thing has always bugged me too, but I've argued that case a few times without success so far. The reason you would upgrade it is because some characters have a mana pool so small that you can't even cast some of the more expensive spells. But once you pass that threshold, I agree, all further upgrades are effectively pointless.

(I got interrupted halfway through writing this, so I'm probably behind the topic now, oh well!)

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2012, 07:21:34 pm »
Dangit, I had a very long response written and when I pressed Post it went away.

To summarize my points, having fewer missions available at the start makes some sense as it's less likely to overwhelm newbies, but maybe the variety is a little too slim. The Boss Gang and Boss Towers are the only ones that are really "Shoot this (these) big thing(s) until victory", things like battheground, Anachronism and Lava Escape missions are more fun. The room template (not all of them are random!) makes a difference too, some of them will spawn a boss in a little niche that enables you to just attack them from safety and win, but others will force you to be on the move and actively dodge the enemy.

Supply depot is the most boring kind of mission, I think, because all you need to do is babysit one pile and shoot things that come near. If all but one crate gets destroyed, you still win. I see no reason to use any different approaches.

Regarding spell variety: The spells should be like the ships in AI War. Almost none of them are direct damage dealers because with those types of ships, there is one ship with the best damage and as such there's no reason to use anything but that one ship. Most AIW units have different mechanics, Mirrors deflect, Parasites reclaim, Shredders multiply, Bombards and snipers deal out pain at long range, Teleport raiders teleport, etc. On the other hand, most spells in AVWW are just dealing damage usually at a powerful but slow rate or a weaker but faster rate. For all the time I've been playing, the two spells I used were Ball Lightning and Forest Rage. There was no reason to use any other combo, they were the most efficient damage dealers and nothing had immunity to both because they're opposites. I switched to Gold Boomerang later but only because it's just a higher damage Ball Lightning. Nowadays I use other spells for funsies but as far as actual tactical descisions about what would be best to use, it just comes down to what does the highest damage.

I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline DiscOH

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2012, 07:36:26 pm »
So I tried turning the difficulty up.  All the mobs act pretty much the same, the only difference is they have tedious amounts of health.  This ended up being a problem when I walked into a room with a very low celing and a monster walked me into a corner.  Since being hit doesn't let you pass through enemies I just got stuck there and got to watch my entire HP bar disappear. 

lol this game.

BTW, effect sounds like skills and the like are unnefected by your audio preferences. I had to mute the whole game in order to hear skype.

How did all these problems make it through beta?  It's like I'm playing release Magika but without the amazing humor and gameplay.

Edit:
To be fair, "good" and "bad" is just an opinion.

I think League of Legends is a terrible game but it's got several million players.  Your criteria may differ from other people's.  Some of the things you mentioned, other people might consider qualities.  Grinding for example is pretty much a staple of modern-day MMORPGs for a reason.

I challenge you to find a better designed MOBA than League. 

Grinding is a staple of MMOs because it leads to longer length subscriptions.  Guild Wars which has no subscription fee has no grind.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 07:40:21 pm by DiscOH »

Offline Professor Paul1290

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2012, 07:45:45 pm »
How did all these problems make it through beta?  It's like I'm playing release Magika but without the amazing humor and gameplay.

Maybe because different people have different tastes in games and different people may think other things are more important?

I'm not kidding, maybe other people didn't think the things you complained about were more important than the other stuff they wanted in the game.

It's a possibility you know.

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2012, 07:50:33 pm »
BTW, effect sounds like skills and the like are unnefected by your audio preferences. I had to mute the whole game in order to hear skype.

How did all these problems make it through beta?  It's like I'm playing release Magika but without the amazing humor and gameplay.

Sound volume is under settings, audio, sound volume. There's a slider there that definitely makes the sounds quieter or louder, although I do notice that turning it down to 0 doesn't actually disable the sound. Although there is a disable sound button directly below it which will do that. I'm not sure if that's a bug or by design. I would expect 0 to be mute, but on the other hand since there's a button below it with the same effect, maybe that's intended.

Enemies can't be passed, that's intentional as well because previously it was sometimes easier to cheese them by just running through enemies and ignoring them rather than stopping to fight. Getting backed into a corridor by an enemy you can't kill is pretty much a valid way to die. I don't think that indicates a problem, it just means you got overwhelmed and died. That's part of the game too.

What other problems make up 'all these problems' that you mention? The beta bug testing process was pretty extensive. Feel free to go look at the changelogs, there are a few hundred pages of fixes and changes to the game from the entire beta process.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2012, 07:50:42 pm »
So I tried turning the difficulty up.  All the mobs act pretty much the same, the only difference is they have tedious amounts of health.  This ended up being a problem when I walked into a room with a very low celing and a monster walked me into a corner.  Since being hit doesn't let you pass through enemies I just got stuck there and got to watch my entire HP bar disappear. 

lol this game.

Ah yes, the "trapped in the corner" death. Annoying, but a natural result of very sane design desicions (like having monsters that are solid and giving many monsters a backup melee attack)
I think the way that most games deal with this is to allow clipping through enemies if you have been hit by their melee attack recently. Something along those lines may be worth investigating

BTW, effect sounds like skills and the like are unnefected by your audio preferences. I had to mute the whole game in order to hear skype.

Sounds like one for the bug tracker

How did all these problems make it through beta?  It's like I'm playing release Magika but without the amazing humor and gameplay.

TBH, distributors. Arcen games isn't like Blizzard, EA, or Valve and thus can run off of "Valve time". If they distributors are told to wait too long, they may drop plans to distribute the game in the timeframe you want, and thus you lose a HUGE chunk of profitability. And since Arcen games is relatively "small fry", the distributors barely lose any profits relatively, and thus don't have much incentive to "bend" for them.
That is why 1.000 had to come out even though there was so much on the bug list and todo list.

IMHO, AI War 4.000 and 5.000 suffered similar issues, some pretty major issues and overall flaws, but the had to be pushed until later thanks to the distributors running out of patience.
That's why I keep up with the betas, where they have much more control over the time schedule and thus eventually get to a much better state than the "stable" builds.

Offline Professor Paul1290

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2012, 08:02:20 pm »
Enemies can't be passed, that's intentional as well because previously it was sometimes easier to cheese them by just running through enemies and ignoring them rather than stopping to fight. Getting backed into a corridor by an enemy you can't kill is pretty much a valid way to die. I don't think that indicates a problem, it just means you got overwhelmed and died. That's part of the game too.

I think it's a valid way to die as well.

If you want to avoid it, that's what spells like Shields, Splash Back, and Teleport are for. (which means other spells having utility!)

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2012, 08:09:46 pm »
Sound sliders work for me, although it is true that 0 does not mute. Perhaps this is a bug, but definitely not an important one. Almost no one plays the sound far down, so it's not suprising that if it's unintended it didn't get noticed.

As for Dying by being cornered, that's a valid thing In my opinion. There are plenty of ways to avoid this, teleport and splash back, etc. Spawning inside monsters is a non-issue because you're invulnerable once going through a door (as long as you haven't gon through the same door recently to avoid tactical cheesing) for this very reason. As long as you approach a room smartly you shouldn't get cornered.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2012, 08:12:35 pm »
How did all these problems make it through beta?  It's like I'm playing release Magika but without the amazing humor and gameplay.

If you can liken this to Magicka's release state, then I simply have nothing more to say, because we're obviously either looking at two different games, or coming from two entirely different systems of understanding reality :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline DiscOH

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: I've never played a game this bad
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2012, 08:18:06 pm »
Sound volume is under settings, audio, sound volume. There's a slider there that definitely makes the sounds quieter or louder, although I do notice that turning it down to 0 doesn't actually disable the sound. Although there is a disable sound button directly below it which will do that. I'm not sure if that's a bug or by design. I would expect 0 to be mute, but on the other hand since there's a button below it with the same effect, maybe that's intended.

Enemies can't be passed, that's intentional as well because previously it was sometimes easier to cheese them by just running through enemies and ignoring them rather than stopping to fight. Getting backed into a corridor by an enemy you can't kill is pretty much a valid way to die. I don't think that indicates a problem, it just means you got overwhelmed and died. That's part of the game too.

What other problems make up 'all these problems' that you mention? The beta bug testing process was pretty extensive. Feel free to go look at the changelogs, there are a few hundred pages of fixes and changes to the game from the entire beta process.

As far as the corner death let me explain the situation.  I open a door which leads to a room, I have low level light and cant see the ends on either side, there is a monster slightly to my right with ~4k health.  I hit for 80 at this point.  I begin to kite the mob to the left and immediately run into a wall that is now visible as I walk into light range of it.  I automatically die.  Its situations like this that lead to virtually every game in the genre allowing you to phase through enemies while injured.

These sort of kill rooms don't add anything to the gameplay, and when death is as punishing as it is in this game, it leads to a freezing effect for exploration.  The only "correct play" I could make in a situation like this is to immediately leave any dark room or risk losing my character.  As far as mobility spells I haven't seen one yet.  In fact, the only craftable spell I've found that does anything besides damage was fire snake, that world got ruined when somebody decided to suicide ~80 times into the spawn area of the overlord though.  I would say something about burdens of knowledge and truly random item distribution being a terrible way to promote customization, but I think i've already talked about that enough.

The problems that I was talking about were mostly design based, not bug based.  There are so many obvious flaws (every boss being a skeleton?) that its honestly hard for me to understand why people play AVWW other than brand loyalty, and everybody I know who's had the misfortune to play it says pretty much the same thing.  So many games do the level up to infinity concept better, so many games do random dungeons better, so many games do exploration better.  Its really obvious this wasn't a finished product and I'm still bitter I got tricked into buying it.

If you can liken this to Magicka's release state, then I simply have nothing more to say, because we're obviously either looking at two different games, or coming from two entirely different systems of understanding reality :)

Magicka was released incomplete, this game was released incomplete.  Both were pretty obvious about it.