I've never played a game this bad

[DiscOH]

Seriously, it makes me want to play Superman 64 to get the taste out of my mouth.

You guys chose to make a platforming game that was truly random, thus negating the possibility of interesting platforming (as both the length you can jump and the length needed to jump can not be synchronized).  The purely random level design constantly reminds me how bad of an idea it is to mix with platforming, be it doors that lead to hundred foot drops into lakes of acid, doors that  spawn you inside of enemies, areas that occasionally make it impossible to return to base.  I haven't seen such lazily built infrastructure since I played Rise of Immortals.

It's also a combat game with no reason to fight monsters, in fact you are actively punished as they not only drop nothing, but grow up into stronger versions if you kill enough of them.  Furthermore it employs permanent death, which punishes you for any sort of risky play and rewards you only the incredibly boring and passive, "shoot at enemies from places they can't return fire" style of play.

As enemies don't drop loot, progression is based on missions.  This would be fine if they all weren't "Shoot this big robot (or bat!) from across the screen for fifty seconds.  Yes, I realize there are other equally exciting missions unlocked later in the game, but in the five hours I played this game I ran into none of them.  Two of the most confusing missions conceptually were the one built for "hard core combat enthusiasts" that encourages even more passive play through every attack instantly killing the target and the mission for "hard core platformers" that confused platforming with guess which door isn't a dead end.  Both of these exciting options lead to permadeath upon failure.

As the game is non linear, I thought, perhaps the earlier missions are set up to spoon feed unskilled players, perhaps the story line bosses are more exciting, so I went to kill a lieutenant only to find he too was a giant robot who I shot from max range.   At this point, I could hardly believe the game cost money, but, unable to believe every enemy was a giant robot, I decided to try one more level and set out to kill the overlord.  I was happy that there were new non robotic boss types, but, other than the floating ball of plasma which I kited around in circles, the same strategy of run around at max range and shoot around corners earned me three boss kills in just over an hour of play.  For this heroic feat I was rewarded with 2 worse copies of enchantments I already had, a bonus to damage types I didn't own, and a "congratulations you beat the bad guy" line.  I still didn't have anything interesting to fight, I didn't have any deeper understanding of the plot, and I didn't have any reason to keep playing this terrible waste of MB.

Me and my roommates bought a 4 pack hoping to experience something we could all play together, like Terraria or Diablo. I have never been so disappointed by a purchase.


To sumerize:

• Progression is based on tedious elements
  
• None of the initial enemies are interesting.
  
  • The game takes too long to introduce unique elements.
    
  • Boss fights are boring and repetitive.
    
    • Death is far too punishing.
      
    • The game is almost entirely monotonous farming.
      
      • The platforming elements don't mesh well with random world creation.
        
      • A lack of recovery moves makes melee builds nonviable
        

[tigersfan]

I'm sorry you don't like the game.

But, I did have a couple questions. You said "...be it doors that lead to hundred foot drops into lakes of acid, doors that  spawn you inside of enemies, areas that occasionally make it impossible to return to base." Do you have actual examples of these? None of these things you describe should be happening.

You say that death is too punishing? Would you mind going into more detail as to why? I know permadeath isn't all that common in games, but even with permadeath, you still get to keep most of your stuff. The only thing you lose is any upgrades you've added to your character. Do you feel that you should be able to keep those as well?

Also, it sounds like the game might be a bit too easy for you, from the way you are describing battles. What difficulty level are you playing on? Have you tried increasing it?

[Hyfrydle]

Perhaps trying the demo first would have been a good idea.

[chemical_art]

Also, it sounds like the game might be a bit too easy for you, from the way you are describing battles. What difficulty level are you playing on? Have you tried increasing it?

I think the issue was that he used the same tactic to defeat the bosses.

He said repeatedly it consisted of shooting off screen at max range.

Boosting difficulty would encourage this tactic even more, I think.

...

Actually, thats the desired tactics for all fights. Hide in a spot where the enemy can't hit you. Bam bam they die. Can't do that? Kite at max range. Bam bam they die. But this tactic is timeless.

I think his rub overall was that the game was very random yet monotonous. Death could occur quickly and hard yet upgrades (enchantments) are random and don't "build up" as visibly as other games do. On reflection, I admit I get that vibe too after a few hours of play.

[Wanderer]

But, I did have a couple questions. You said "...be it doors that lead to hundred foot drops into lakes of acid, doors that  spawn you inside of enemies, areas that occasionally make it impossible to return to base." Do you have actual examples of these? None of these things you describe should be happening.

Hunh, I thought that was intentional, actually.  The doors into acid thing not so much, but huge drop areas that make it hard to return.  The door into enemies thing happens a lot, but that's why you're invulnerable on entry to let them move along.

The drop areas were actually a bigger problem before you could hang your platforms off the edge of the background areas, as making the 'turning jump' could be really difficult from directly underneath the overhang to return home.  Also there's ladders that go up to what should have been gaps but the system placed the next cliff right on top of it.  It just happens occassionally.  Before the platform change I just used to continue along to the next warp gate or poke into a house or two until I found one and could head home that way, it's not as big a deal now.

[tigersfan]

He said making it impossible to return, that shouldn't be happening. Difficult to return? yeah, that happens.

[Wanderer]

He said making it impossible to return, that shouldn't be happening. Difficult to return? yeah, that happens.

Have said cliff between the first surface warp gate and the exit wall and you can end up with that problem... well, could, not so much anymore unless you run out of platforms/crates.

[chemical_art]

On reflection, I wonder how much genre shock OP had when he thought "platformer" then played this game.

This game is a platformer, no doubt. But at least for me when I think platformer I think of Mario, Crash Bandicoot, etc.

What this game does that many others do not is that you must create your platforms.

Yeah, its an art I've not mastered. Actually, I find it kind of frustrating. But that's my problem, not the game. At the same time, I feel the pain of the OP.

[bvchaosinc]

It's also a combat game with no reason to fight monsters, in fact you are actively punished as they not only drop nothing, but grow up into stronger versions if you kill enough of them. 

This point troubles me the most,  combat has been feeling very pointless to me.  I assumed this was because I was in the very early stages of the game.  Does the game keep up with this run away shoot back run away mode of combat?

[KDR_11k]

Original poster has evidently not played Dangerous Vaults.

[DiscOH]

I'm sorry you don't like the game.

But, I did have a couple questions. You said "...be it doors that lead to hundred foot drops into lakes of acid, doors that  spawn you inside of enemies, areas that occasionally make it impossible to return to base." Do you have actual examples of these? None of these things you describe should be happening.

You say that death is too punishing? Would you mind going into more detail as to why? I know permadeath isn't all that common in games, but even with permadeath, you still get to keep most of your stuff. The only thing you lose is any upgrades you've added to your character. Do you feel that you should be able to keep those as well?

Also, it sounds like the game might be a bit too easy for you, from the way you are describing battles. What difficulty level are you playing on? Have you tried increasing it?

I played through on normal because I found some of the monsters (crashed robots mostly) to be gear checks rather than enjoyable combat.  If you did enough damage to blow up the incoming projectile you got to progress further, otherwise you had to run.

The doors leading to death traps examples all happened to me during my short play-through.  The drops into acid occurred only in caves (usually a result of a door leading into a floating hole in the wall on the other side), the other two events both happened in the overlord map.  I used all my platforms to build a skyway over the enemies, and while trying to return to base fell to land.  I found that the erratic terrain wasn't climbable without extra platforms (or double jump which I didn't have) and had to abandon the character. Spawning in enemies happened several times, usually it was in a house, but on one occasion a monster was waiting for me on the right hand entrance outdoors.

Losing upgrade stones on death is a much bigger issue than losing gear on death (especially when you can pick the gear back up like in diablo).  Losing upgrade stones is like losing all your levels.  I found ~5-10 stones per 15 minutes in a house, this means that a 16 stone upgrade took on average half an hour to earn.  The process of earning them was uneventful and unchallenging, because  where most games let you progress through kills, stones are only available via non combative exploration.  If character upgrades were more interesting to achieve, I wouldn't feel so upset for losing them.  Add this loss to two thousand plus health ghosts that deal around a hundred damage a hit and dying becomes a terrible chore.

I think the issue was that he used the same tactic to defeat the bosses.

He said repeatedly it consisted of shooting off screen at max range.

Boosting difficulty would encourage this tactic even more, I think.


I think his rub overall was that the game was very random yet monotonous. Death could occur quickly and hard yet upgrades are random and don't "build up" as visibly as other games do. On reflection, I admit I get that vibe too after a few hours of play.

This was exactly my problem.

On reflection, I wonder how much genre shock OP had when he thought "platformer" then played this game.

This game is a platformer, no doubt. But at least for me when I think platformer I think of Mario, Crash Bandicoot, etc.

What this game does that many others do not is that you must create your platforms.

Yeah, its an art I've not mastered. Actually, I find it kind of frustrating. But that's my problem, not the game. At the same time, I feel the pain of the OP.

Honestly I would have been happy with terraria's level of platforming, but none of the monsters in this game required any sort of thought or reflexes to avoid.  Platforms were way to abusive and cheap in AVWW, in terraria they weren't handed away for free whenever you healed, and monsters would occasionally destroy them.  Terraria was also more enjoyable for me because you were one of the least mobile entities of that game as apposed to one of the most mobile in AVWW.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

You can find Upgrade stones easily in abandoned town houses.  But we are currently investigating and contemplating changes. 

As for Terraria VS AVWW, both are entirely different games with their own version of challenges.  I played a number of hours, but found that after a certain point, I only died due to drowning or ridiculously powerful bosses or falling. 

King

[chemical_art]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with the upgrade stones is that they are monotonous. That is, they don't allow new avenues or specializations that could make the game more diverse. Buffing health and mana is great, yes. But that doesn't really make a character "special". Almost every game I know of provides a benefit to specializing. Like if you put points in health you unlock other things as well, like reduced damage, or health regen. Or if you put points in mana you increase attack speed or allow better AoE attacks. Right now the effects seem...linear...and actively discourage specializing. Making for a homogenous experience.

Also, especially early on, when you are dying repeatedly, and the upgrade stones come in a slow trickle, you are better off hoarding them until at least you kill your first lieutenant. Which just feels odd.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem with the upgrade stones is that they are monotonous. That is, they don't allow new avenues or specializations that could make the game more diverse. Buffing health and mana is great, yes. But that doesn't really make a character "special". Almost every game I know of provides a benefit to specializing. Like if you put points in health you unlock other things as well, like reduced damage, or health regen. Or if you put points in mana you increase attack speed or allow better AoE attacks. Right now the effects seem...linear...and actively discourage specializing. Making for a homogenous experience.

Also, especially early on, when you are dying repeatedly, and the upgrade stones come in a slow trickle, you are better off hoarding them until at least you kill your first lieutenant. Which just feels odd.

No one says you have to use your upgrade stones when you collect them, or have to collect them at all.  Part of the choice of the game heh   other than that I can't say much more, it depends on what we decide to do with upgrade stones. 

King

[BobTheJanitor]

On dropping gear on death, interestingly that was one of the original designs from waaaaaaaay back in alpha some time. When you died you left a loot bag with all your stuff that you had to go back and get. That idea was dropped because you were just as likely to repeatedly die trying to go back and retrieve it.

On upgrade stones, their method of acquisition might benefit from a rethinking, it's true. The reason you don't get them from enemies is because the game is designed to avoid the need to grind enemies for upgrades. Of course it's possible that it may have swerved too far in the other direction so that it now requires you to grind exploring buildings for upgrades. Since the original point was to avoid grinding of any type, that could be a problem. Ideally you should just be able to do fun things and advance at a natural rate, and never feel like you MUST do one specific thing repeatedly in order to get further in the game.

Edit:

it depends on what we decide to do with upgrade stones. 

While I understand exactly what you mean, it might be wise to avoid saying 'we' when talking about game changes. Sure, we all have given lots of input to the process over time, but with a lot of new players around at the moment it might be better to avoid the impression that any of us fans are actually developers or in any way speaking for Arcen games.