Author Topic: I just don't know what to make of this game...  (Read 4500 times)

Offline postmanmanman

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I just don't know what to make of this game...
« on: April 30, 2012, 08:48:11 pm »
I have the absolute strangest feelings about this game. It's really hard to word them, but I'm going to try...

On one hand, I desperately want to love this game. I haven't actually bought it yet (I'm on a very limited budget, so I've been highly selective about my gaming purchases lately), but I have played several hours of the demo. Several hours. That's got to say something. It captures a certain imagination, a certain willingness to be weird that I haven't seen in ages... it tastes vaguely of EYE: Divine Cybermancy just for the pure weirdness and the feeling that this is truly something that could only be done by an indie studio on the PC, and I mean that in the best way possible. It's just so refreshing to see true creativity still exists and people are still willing to try new things.

I also adore the concept. I'm a huge Metroid fan (and a substantial Castlevania fan as well, for good measure), so the idea of a free-roam, procedurally generated Metroidvania is just about this best thing I've ever heard. I also love the concept of an open world so large that players actually have to be selective about their exploration. It's sort of a sense of "why hasn't anyone done this before?" Because, you know, that's how an open world ought to work... it feels natural and realistic. And on that note, I really like the sort of sense of discovery the game gives... not so much in finding new areas (because they're very generic, a point I'll get to later) but in terms of discovering new mechanics and the like. The game is a bit opaque, and it could use a much better tutorial, but at the same time, it's been a while since I've seen a game with the stones to just set players loose. Again, I'm sort of reminded of EYE. (I had a similar love/hate relationship with that game, too.)

But on the other side of all these positives are the multitude problems I have with the game. Firstly, it's ugly. I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't be so superficial, but it's just universally off-putting to look at. The pre-rendered look, combined with complete and total lack of attention to color balance just make it give me serious headaches to look at for too long... after every play session it really feels like my head is imploding. Plus, I've seen this reaction basically everywhere I go. There are a select few who insist that it's reasonable, but I beg you not to listen to closely to the kind of universal, indiscriminate praise those select few give. Most of us think it's bad, and it's bad enough that fixing it ought to be higher on your priority list than you guys keep saying it is.

My other problems are much more abstract... first, I don't like the grinding-ness of the game. Other people have said this, but I'll say it again. A lot of the game revolves around farming resources to upgrade settlements, spells, etc. Thankfully, the in-game reference always gives a good idea of exactly where to find stuff, so it's never a matter of "where do I find this," but rather "when do I want to find this?" Unfortunately, this eternal collect-a-thon basically comprises the entire game. Other games, like Dark Souls or Monster Hunter, also revolve largely around farming and hoarding resources. These games get away with it, however, because they have a strong hook (combat) to provide a reason to farm. Which brings me to my next point...

Combat feels... superfluous. Which is bad in a game with a lot of it. As others have pointed out, there's never any reason to fight, and players are actively punished for fighting with new, tougher monsters showing up. Plus, combat is dead simple. Basically you just equip a direct- fire spell, hit tab or aim manually, and hammer away until whatever you're shooting at is several shades of dead. There's no variation. All elements feel the same, and all enemies feel the same to fight. There are fire espers and water espers and lightning espers, but all they do is shoot little, glowing projectiles at you. I guess there's some land-based enemies too, but the only tactic these guys seem to have is running at you until they run you to death.

So the game is based around collecting, combat, and exploration, the first two of which I've already said are weak. Exploration doesn't fare too much better. As I mentioned earlier, I love the huge, sprawling world, but none of it is interesting. There's a few types of forests, a desert, lava areas, ice areas, etc. Standard fare, which is bad enough in its own right. It's made worse in this game, however, because all the areas feel so dreadfully similar. Aside from the garish backgrounds and some minor structural changes in the overworld (but not in caverns or most interiors), nothing separates all these areas. Hell, the same enemies populate most of them, too. There's very little joy to exploring several generic, same-y areas with no memorable terrain or defining features.

So if the three main tenets of the game are weak, what does that mean? Well, it means the game feels... pointless, and distant. If that makes any sense. I get the overall goal of trying to kill the ultimate Overlord, but there's very little to no correlation between my farming resources and shooting orbs at floating, differently-colored orbs to that end goal. It feels like I'm wasting my time with no direction. There's no drive, no sense of progression to what I'm doing. It feels, well, half-baked. The heart and passion is there, but the implementation is vacant.

Finally, there are little niggles I have with the game... some missions (especially Asteroid Defense missions) just feel terribly designed. Plus, there's little annoyances like the inability to equip a light and a chest enchant at the same time... would it really hurt to just let players use both? That's really just nitpicking, though.

So, ultimately? I just don't know what to think of this game. I love the concept and I love that, well, I can tell love went into making this game. It feels like a celebration of gaming, a celebration of the creativity that game design allows. It feels genuine and personal, which is not something I can say about most any other recent game. And yet... the execution is so off. It feels fundamentally flawed in so many ways that I just can't claim to love it wholly.

As for the purpose of this incredibly lengthy rant, take it as you will. I obviously don't expect Arcen to start from scratch and rework all the core game mechanics; that would be absurd. I just felt like sharing my thoughts on the game. I honestly might end up buying it anyways simply because I haven't felt this strongly about a game in ages.

Oh yeah, and one last thing: the music kicks ass. Whoever composed for this is awesome.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 09:12:25 pm »
I'll make some comments about your post.

First, the music - that was done by Pablo Vega.

The art - What can I say? We have lots of folks who love it, lots who hate it. Every improvement or change we've made to the art has been with mixed results, and people who do take issue with it now take issue with differing part of it. There just isn't a single change we could make that we feel would be worth our time in the face of all the other changes that we're making right now. For now, the art is what it is.

Combat - Yeah, we need to add a few more enemies and stuff later on. But, I can assure you, as the game progresses, it's not "simple." In fact, once elites and enemies like crashed landspeeders come into play, things can get complicated quick. That said, we're planning on adding more enemies to increase this.

Exploring - We're planning on making some of the cave and interior areas feel different from eachother, but this is no small project, so it's not something that will happen this week.

Missions - These things are REALLY subjective. Seriously, some folks absolutely LOVE every mission type. And others absolutely LOATHE them. Quite frankly, this is perfectly fine, since the game goes out of the way to make sure that you aren't forced to play the mission styles you don't like. That said, we love specific feedback about specific improvements we can make.

Enchants - You absolutely can get chest enchants that have light. Though, being on the demo, I'm not sure if those get limited for you or not. But, they do exist.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 09:19:45 pm »
Alright, not going to quote as your post is so long, but three points I would like to comment on specifically. Beyond these two, I'll just point you towards existing threads that are already discussing these points.
Just FYI, every one of these points the devs are hard at work on. ;)

EDIT: If someone can help me find theads dealing with various common criticisms and places to improve, that would be helpful.
EDIT2: Also, make sure to check out the bug/suggestion tracker at http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
The things suggested there tend to be less "macro game" and more focused, but can help "chip away" at a "problem"
EDIT3:
Here are some threads similar to what you posted, and the devs have responded to many of these concerns in these:
Disappointed in AVWW
I've never played a game this bad (No, I am not making the title of that thread up)

Art, especially color balance:
Someone has released a "texture pack" with toned down saturation and brightness of background elements, and it makes it look quite a bit better. You can get it at http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10435.msg101979.html#msg101979
Hopefully something like this can be pushed into the "main branch"

"Grindyness":
There has been quite a bit of debate about this. In fact, quite a bit of debate has been about whether this game is grindy or not. IMO, it depends on what a player considers grindy and what a player considers natural ways of character progression. There is enough personal preference in this area to make this type of conversation difficult.
In any case, quite a bit of discussion has been put forth on improving combat rewards, exploration rewards, mission rewards, and spell costs.

Room variety:
The need for more variety and "intelligence" in interior areas, especially caves, has been pointed out repeatidly. This not only comes in the form of modifying the room generator, but also giving it more things to work with (like someone suggested new wall and floor types with special properties, and more interior region specific art assets, or possibly re-purpose some of the existing art assets to be more region specific)
Chunks having themes


Combat:
Player abilities:
Variety:
Getting players to use more spells
Design Goal: Getting players to specialize, not just use everything.
Progression:
Synergies as a way of increasing spell depth
"Feel": TBD

Enemies:
Variety: TBD
Rewards:
Brainstorming ideas for minor rewards for defeating enemies


Character:
Progression:
Enchants generation general discussion

Variety/Distinctiveness: TBD

Exploration:
Ideas for exploration enhancement
Variety/Distinctiveness across continents: TBD

Controls:
TBD
Individual suggestions:
Allow Modifier Keys in key bindings
(Note, you can assign the mouse wheel to switch the currently highlighted ability. Several people have stated they found that useful)

NOTE: Draft, trying to find links for all the TBDs
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 09:33:37 pm by techsy730 »

Offline postmanmanman

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 09:45:34 pm »
~a post long enough for me not to want to quote all of it~

Great to hear that some of this is under consideration. That's another thing I really admire about this game... the dev interaction in the community. You don't see that often.

And, well, honestly, I don't see where you see people liking the graphics. There are a few people on this forum, but really, head to any article regarding the game elsewhere on the web and it's endless hate towards the visuals. I understand it's a big undertaking, but I really hope at some point you guys consider hiring an artist.

Oh, and as for the light enchant... I meant, why can't we equip a light enchant and a chest enchant at the same time? Why does the light have to take up that chest spot? Does it really add anything to gameplay to force players to spam light-spawing spells if they don't want to use a light enchant?

Offline TechSY730

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 09:49:37 pm »
~a post long enough for me not to want to quote all of it~

Great to hear that some of this is under consideration. That's another thing I really admire about this game... the dev interaction in the community. You don't see that often.

And, well, honestly, I don't see where you see people liking the graphics. There are a few people on this forum, but really, head to any article regarding the game elsewhere on the web and it's endless hate towards the visuals. I understand it's a big undertaking, but I really hope at some point you guys consider hiring an artist.

Oh, and as for the light enchant... I meant, why can't we equip a light enchant and a chest enchant at the same time? Why does the light have to take up that chest spot? Does it really add anything to gameplay to force players to spam light-spawing spells if they don't want to use a light enchant?

Hey, I like the graphics. In the thread I posted (and in this thread I made), you'll see I actually like the level of detail in the graphics. I agree that the color balance needs to be looked at, and the background "tiles" could be made less, well, jarring, but overall, I love the art.

Offline khadgar

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 09:53:52 pm »
~a post long enough for me not to want to quote all of it~

And, well, honestly, I don't see where you see people liking the graphics. There are a few people on this forum, but really, head to any article regarding the game elsewhere on the web and it's endless hate towards the visuals. I understand it's a big undertaking, but I really hope at some point you guys consider hiring an artist.


I haven't followed the development of this game for as long as a lot of people on here, but I did read up on the earlier development a while ago. I watch a youtube video where the game looked different. The top comments were complaints about the art style. I jumped ahead to another youtube video detailing the new art style. Both top comments were critical of the art style yet again.

While I agree that the artistic direction of the game might not be it's strong suit, I agree with the developers in that there are other things with a higher payoff than spending their time on than drawing prettier bats and cool looking trees. Or, y'know, that sort of thing.

Offline PatDay

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 09:58:20 pm »
Good summary techsy!

Anyway, I agree with most of what the OP wrote, but I wanted to specifically point out my disagreement about the graphics. Personally, I think the graphics are fine. High res, good models, and such. I'm not an art major, so I don't know how to describe art :) I don't need any new models or anything.

But I think there is a graphical issue with the contrast. Some of the backgrounds are extremely busy and the mobs can hardly be seen. One example I can specifically think of is in the desert area with pyramids and the ghost-like mobs (I forget the names). I had to squint to tell what was going on. Now maybe that was the plan, but in my opinion, I like easier to see enemies.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 10:00:09 pm by PatDay »

Offline PatDay

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 10:25:38 pm »
Oh, and as for the light enchant... I meant, why can't we equip a light enchant and a chest enchant at the same time? Why does the light have to take up that chest spot? Does it really add anything to gameplay to force players to spam light-spawing spells if they don't want to use a light enchant?

Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah, I have to agree. I never use the chest slot for anything other than light due to the fact that I've mentioned on other posts that I feel using a variety of spells is a nuisance so I'd rather have one less spell to cast. Seems a shame.

Perhaps add a new slot called "Light" specifically for lights. This could open in options for different lights (other than just larger ones) that have special bonuses like highlight enemies (color coded based on weakness), enemy radar, or resource locator (I'm thinking like Navi, but less annoying :) )

Offline nanostrike

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 10:27:22 pm »
But on the other side of all these positives are the multitude problems I have with the game. Firstly, it's ugly. I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't be so superficial, but it's just universally off-putting to look at. The pre-rendered look, combined with complete and total lack of attention to color balance just make it give me serious headaches to look at for too long... after every play session it really feels like my head is imploding. Plus, I've seen this reaction basically everywhere I go. There are a select few who insist that it's reasonable, but I beg you not to listen to closely to the kind of universal, indiscriminate praise those select few give. Most of us think it's bad, and it's bad enough that fixing it ought to be higher on your priority list than you guys keep saying it is.

My other problems are much more abstract... first, I don't like the grinding-ness of the game. Other people have said this, but I'll say it again. A lot of the game revolves around farming resources to upgrade settlements, spells, etc. Thankfully, the in-game reference always gives a good idea of exactly where to find stuff, so it's never a matter of "where do I find this," but rather "when do I want to find this?" Unfortunately, this eternal collect-a-thon basically comprises the entire game. Other games, like Dark Souls or Monster Hunter, also revolve largely around farming and hoarding resources. These games get away with it, however, because they have a strong hook (combat) to provide a reason to farm. Which brings me to my next point...

Combat feels... superfluous. Which is bad in a game with a lot of it. As others have pointed out, there's never any reason to fight, and players are actively punished for fighting with new, tougher monsters showing up. Plus, combat is dead simple. Basically you just equip a direct- fire spell, hit tab or aim manually, and hammer away until whatever you're shooting at is several shades of dead. There's no variation. All elements feel the same, and all enemies feel the same to fight. There are fire espers and water espers and lightning espers, but all they do is shoot little, glowing projectiles at you. I guess there's some land-based enemies too, but the only tactic these guys seem to have is running at you until they run you to death.

So the game is based around collecting, combat, and exploration, the first two of which I've already said are weak. Exploration doesn't fare too much better. As I mentioned earlier, I love the huge, sprawling world, but none of it is interesting. There's a few types of forests, a desert, lava areas, ice areas, etc. Standard fare, which is bad enough in its own right. It's made worse in this game, however, because all the areas feel so dreadfully similar. Aside from the garish backgrounds and some minor structural changes in the overworld (but not in caverns or most interiors), nothing separates all these areas. Hell, the same enemies populate most of them, too. There's very little joy to exploring several generic, same-y areas with no memorable terrain or defining features.

So if the three main tenets of the game are weak, what does that mean? Well, it means the game feels... pointless, and distant. If that makes any sense. I get the overall goal of trying to kill the ultimate Overlord, but there's very little to no correlation between my farming resources and shooting orbs at floating, differently-colored orbs to that end goal. It feels like I'm wasting my time with no direction. There's no drive, no sense of progression to what I'm doing. It feels, well, half-baked. The heart and passion is there, but the implementation is vacant.

Finally, there are little niggles I have with the game... some missions (especially Asteroid Defense missions) just feel terribly designed. Plus, there's little annoyances like the inability to equip a light and a chest enchant at the same time... would it really hurt to just let players use both? That's really just nitpicking, though.

So, ultimately? I just don't know what to think of this game. I love the concept and I love that, well, I can tell love went into making this game. It feels like a celebration of gaming, a celebration of the creativity that game design allows. It feels genuine and personal, which is not something I can say about most any other recent game. And yet... the execution is so off. It feels fundamentally flawed in so many ways that I just can't claim to love it wholly.

As for the purpose of this incredibly lengthy rant, take it as you will. I obviously don't expect Arcen to start from scratch and rework all the core game mechanics; that would be absurd. I just felt like sharing my thoughts on the game. I honestly might end up buying it anyways simply because I haven't felt this strongly about a game in ages.

Oh yeah, and one last thing: the music kicks ass. Whoever composed for this is awesome.


Pretty much agree.  While a lot of the levels are really atmospheric (The Deeps, Skelebot Junkyards, and the Lava Flats really stand out) and draw you in, a lot of them are just terrible looking (Evergreen Forest, Ice Areas, most of the caves).

And while the sprites on the enemies are mostly okay, the characters look really...I dunno...fake?  They look like comic-book cut-outs pasted into the scene.  Pretty generic looking, very, VERY limited animations, ect.  The robots are particularly terrible in this department.  One of my robots appears to be leaning at almost a 60 degree angle when he's supposed to be standing still.

Also, the grind definitely rears it's head.  Grabbing a ton of Consciousness Orbs from an area you've already been to a billion times isn't fun.



Find a way to look at some of these things and maybe fix the combat and the game could be amazing.


Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah, I have to agree. I never use the chest slot for anything other than light due to the fact that I've mentioned on other posts that I feel using a variety of spells is a nuisance so I'd rather have one less spell to cast. Seems a shame.

Perhaps add a new slot called "Light" specifically for lights. This could open in options for different lights (other than just larger ones) that have special bonuses like highlight enemies (color coded based on weakness), enemy radar, or resource locator (I'm thinking like Navi, but less annoying :) )

It's to force you to use the light spells (Light Orb, Fire Flare, Light Snake) to see if you want to use a chest enchant.  And while those work...it's VERY tedious to have to keep slapping down Light Orbs every few steps just so I can see what's going on.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 10:29:23 pm by nanostrike »

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 10:47:48 pm »
~a post long enough for me not to want to quote all of it~

Great to hear that some of this is under consideration. That's another thing I really admire about this game... the dev interaction in the community. You don't see that often.

And, well, honestly, I don't see where you see people liking the graphics. There are a few people on this forum, but really, head to any article regarding the game elsewhere on the web and it's endless hate towards the visuals. I understand it's a big undertaking, but I really hope at some point you guys consider hiring an artist.

Oh, and as for the light enchant... I meant, why can't we equip a light enchant and a chest enchant at the same time? Why does the light have to take up that chest spot? Does it really add anything to gameplay to force players to spam light-spawing spells if they don't want to use a light enchant?

Take article comments with as much a grain a salt as YouTube comments. They do not reflect the feelings of everyone.

I am also someone who really enjoys the graphics. And there have been more than a few comments on the forum alone that like the graphics.

King
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Visit the Arcen Mantis to help: https://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/
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Offline Dan_Cilantro

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 10:52:16 pm »

Missions - These things are REALLY subjective. Seriously, some folks absolutely LOVE every mission type. And others absolutely LOATHE them. Quite frankly, this is perfectly fine, since the game goes out of the way to make sure that you aren't forced to play the mission styles you don't like. That said, we love specific feedback about specific improvements we can make.


I mentioned in another thread that all the missions I had available to me (4 of 4) were anachronism missions, which I was having problems with. Is there a convenient way to swap or wait them out that I missed?

Offline zebramatt

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2012, 02:50:40 am »
Regarding light enchants:

1. That's intentional. Equip a light enchant and forget about it, or use the slot for something else and use light spells. It's a choice. It might seem like a pointless one to some, but I actually often choose the latter myself. Except...

2. Light is an incredibly common attribute on those enchants. So common, in fact, that you will find yourself hard pressed to use any of the even slightly more advanced enchants there and not have light alongside one or more other significant buffs.

Offline freykin

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2012, 03:34:59 am »
I'm another one who likes the art style of the game. Takes me back to my SNES days, which are both long gone and current (go go fan translations/rom hacks!).

As for the chest light enchant, torso enchants are able to have light modifiers on them as well, it just seems to be rare on the results table. I'd put on a torso enchant seeker and go enchantment container hunting if it's a big deal. Otherwise, I highly recommend Moon Lamps, which can be found in huge quantities in ice age locations. They provide a gigantic radius of light compared to the ball of light spell, and a good 5-10 minutes of stash hunting will last you hours of play.

Offline Misery

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 03:44:00 am »
~a post long enough for me not to want to quote all of it~

Great to hear that some of this is under consideration. That's another thing I really admire about this game... the dev interaction in the community. You don't see that often.

And, well, honestly, I don't see where you see people liking the graphics. There are a few people on this forum, but really, head to any article regarding the game elsewhere on the web and it's endless hate towards the visuals. I understand it's a big undertaking, but I really hope at some point you guys consider hiring an artist.

Oh, and as for the light enchant... I meant, why can't we equip a light enchant and a chest enchant at the same time? Why does the light have to take up that chest spot? Does it really add anything to gameplay to force players to spam light-spawing spells if they don't want to use a light enchant?

Take article comments with as much a grain a salt as YouTube comments. They do not reflect the feelings of everyone.

I am also someone who really enjoys the graphics. And there have been more than a few comments on the forum alone that like the graphics.

King


And something else to keep in mind:   The negative players are ALWAYS the most vocal.  Both in comments sections, and often on forums (though this one is amazingly free of that for the most part....).   And they very definitely do not represent the majority, as said above.   I love the heck outta the graphics and artstyle myself, and I think the various aspects of the game.... particularly exploration..... are very well done.

Offline Oz33

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Re: I just don't know what to make of this game...
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2012, 05:40:29 am »
Personally i adore the artstyle and graphics of AWWW. It was one of the reasons i bought the game!

That said i simply like wandering around Environ and don't see it as a grind because its pretty :)