Author Topic: I can't buy this game  (Read 3206 times)

Offline Maledictus

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 18
I can't buy this game
« on: July 05, 2012, 04:39:38 pm »
Make no mistake, I want to, and at some point I will, but I can't right now. Here's why.

I've been watching this game for a long time, from before the shift from a 3d plane to a 2d plane. I love the setting, concept, art style, mechanics. But nothing stays the same for very long... This can be seen as developing the game while it's live, or having the community helping out in tracking down problems and improvements. But it's a frustrating affair for someone on the fence. I've seen things I hated removed, things I loved removed, things I hated added, you get the idea. For instance, I like the art style very much. Now there's talk of this changing in a rather radical way. That's not by definition a bad thing, but it simply means that if I buy now, a few months down the road this game can look and feel completely different. And now there are buttons in the game that have a tool tip that says "does nothing right now". That's crude, I think.

I've followed and bought a fair amount of non AAA games and in most cases the community helps to filter out problems and make the designer's original ideas work better (hell, a direct link to any developer is the coolest thing ever, if you have a love for games. which I do). This game has that and then some. It seems to me that a relatively small fanbase helps shape the game by posing ideas and suggestions that can lead to completely altered game mechanics, which can lead to the conclusion that the designers didn't really think things through in the first place. Or they simply like an organic way of developing games. I mean, I've seen people on these boards, giving lots of input, that I've seen on other boards as well (doing the same thing), making me think there's an almost fanatical group of indie lovers out there that travel with the indie release tide and shaping games as they surf along. Though perhaps that's just paranoid.

It's important to state that I do NOT consider all this a bad thing. It's cool and if this is the way that Arcen wants to shape this game, good for them. I'm just saying that for some folk (I refuse to believe I'm the only OCD gamer out there) this is frustrating, and for me as a gamer this doesn't work. So my plan for now is to come back in a few months, see what has happend and then decide. With the risk that the game has turned into something I don't like.
Again, not a complaint, but I just felt like saying this, because I think there's more of us out there and therefore it might have an effect on sales. But then again, I could just be full of **** and you're welcome to say so.

Until later.

P.s: not unimportant: most reviews of the game are no longer accurate, or sometimes even completely wrong. Because of the game's evolution. Not sure what you as developers can do about that, but I would find that annoying. And it doesn't help.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 04:45:06 pm by Maledictus »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 04:52:01 pm »
You can play version 1.0, or version 1.103, or whichever you like :)  Though those are the two "stable" official releases (i.e. to my knowledge, neither has any really nasty bugs).  The fact that we go on updating it need not impact you.

But yes, there's at least two ditches on every road.  In this case, while people are largely familiar with the problems associated with a lack of post-release support for games, there's relatively little experience with the problems that can happen in the presence of vigorous post-release support.  It's something of a learning experience, truly.  But the problems are more in the nature of "you go to math class, you face math problems" than anything that would even to begin dissuading us from the practice.

But thanks for the feedback!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Coppermantis

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,212
  • Avenger? I hardly know 'er!
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 05:59:31 pm »


P.s: not unimportant: most reviews of the game are no longer accurate, or sometimes even completely wrong. Because of the game's evolution. Not sure what you as developers can do about that, but I would find that annoying. And it doesn't help.

At least one major reviewer has written a revised review since 1.1 came out. Maybe others too.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 06:11:39 pm »
*sigh* don't post when tired... (removed my post)
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline zespri

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,109
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 07:55:04 pm »
*sigh* don't post when tired... (removed my post)
I think if your post is the last post in the thread you can remove it entirely (i.e.without trace).

Offline eRe4s3r

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,825
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 09:48:16 pm »
which you just made impossible with your reply  ;D

I can see this being something keeping people from buying, but imagine how it is for someone when it comes to playing the darn thing! Every month I recheck AVWW and have to replay the tutorial because everything changed. And in the latest versions quite fundamentally I might add. I can't even say yet whether its a good or bad change, it's just change which kinda keeps me from getting too deeply into any game session. Because as much as I like constant development I feel that for AVWW we are not yet at a point where the game is actually developed. Imo a good example why keeping to a fundamental an in-depth design document that is made before coding even begins is always a good idea.

Though it is simply a matter of waiting this phase out, I guess as it stands When I started the game up, I was majorly confused, I make it a point not to read change logs anymore ,p
Proud member of the Initiative for Bigger Weapons EV. - Bringer of Additive Blended Doom - Vote for Lore, get free cookie

Offline BenMiff

  • Map Maker Mk V
  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2012, 03:19:34 am »
Personally, I quite like the updates; however, I'd agree I've seen changes I dislike.

However, quite often a month or so down the line I've found they are not necessarily as annoying as I first believed, and often they get tweaked further to address issues that arose originally with the change, so some of the problems that come from a frequent update schedule are also solved by a frequent update schedule.

I would argue it might be worth keeping a "revert to old version" list of patches somewhere though, so people can go back to older versions if they wish.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2012, 05:12:28 am »
It's definitely a different kind of gaming culture. Playing a game that is constantly evolving. Then again, there's really nothing forcing you to update.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Misery

  • Arcen Volunteer
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,109
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2012, 06:13:01 am »
which you just made impossible with your reply  ;D

I can see this being something keeping people from buying, but imagine how it is for someone when it comes to playing the darn thing! Every month I recheck AVWW and have to replay the tutorial because everything changed. And in the latest versions quite fundamentally I might add. I can't even say yet whether its a good or bad change, it's just change which kinda keeps me from getting too deeply into any game session. Because as much as I like constant development I feel that for AVWW we are not yet at a point where the game is actually developed. Imo a good example why keeping to a fundamental an in-depth design document that is made before coding even begins is always a good idea.

Though it is simply a matter of waiting this phase out, I guess as it stands When I started the game up, I was majorly confused, I make it a point not to read change logs anymore ,p

I think it's nice that they're willing to make such big changes though.

Most devs, if there's something about their game that players are pretty much always finding annoying/stupid/whatever, usually the dev response is something like "Well, sorry, that's the way it is, it's already done".   So the dumb bit stays.   Here, that's not the case, which is a breath of fresh air.

Hopefully, the stuff that was changed to.... like the arcane bits being in stashes and the new levels system.... actually STAYS though, instead of later getting changed to something else AGAIN;  that's the point where it could be an issue. 

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2012, 07:59:51 am »
And of course there's the fact that if you liked something which was removed, you can come on here and explain why you liked it, what you feel is lost from its removal and make a case, if not for reinstating the exact same feature, then certainly for introducing something new or tweaking something else to compensate and recapture what was lost.

You could do that now, before you buy, even.

(Then again, you might just want to be given a game, warts and all, so you can play it without getting too involved with that sort of thing - which is perfectly valid too!)

Offline Maledictus

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2012, 03:50:31 pm »
Most of my "worries" mentioned by some, so yeah, you do get it. Thanks for that.

I kinda feel the updates ARE mandatory because they also contain hotfixes for issues in the point releases. So not updating affects gameplay. Maybe, to me, splitting fixes and content updates would make more sense, but it's not my place to suggest the devs change their way of building this game.
I know that I can make suggestions about (parts of) the game here and try to change things (and I'm thinking of something as I type this), but that's the point: anybody can do that. This makes a solid design document for/by the devs all the more important, as stated.

Finally, I should say that almost all the stuff that got into the game after the 1.0 is ace, and my biggest fear is that some of this goodness may disappear because people may suggest changes that counter the stuff that is in now.

Looking forward to 1.3. Will that be the one?....

Thanks all.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2012, 03:59:02 pm »
Interestingly, and contrary to what I thought before I got into making games, my experience and those of other indies I've heard from is that solid design docs are a significant hindrance and/or mistake.  We do document the immutable design goals, but that's a pretty short list.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline goodgimp

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2012, 04:27:23 pm »
I'd have qualms if the game wasn't evolving in good ways, but it is. Therefore I am extremely pleased, but I see where the OP could be coming from.

I'm delighted that I got a fairly good game in 1.0, worth the $15. Then it got markedly improved in 1.1. Now for 1.2  this is turning into a game that is getting closer to "classic" territory for me. All great changes for me, so thank you, Arcen for the amazing support.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2012, 05:10:48 pm »
For me, I'm pretty vehemently opposed to the design document approach.  Why?  Because it leads to derivative work.  Or stuff that sounds good on paper, but then really stinks in practice.

For Arcen, what we practice is evolutionary game development -- where we try exploratory ideas that we have a strong feeling will improve things, and then see how it works out. 

Note that it's not a democratic or crowdsourced process: if a bunch of new people come on and make a lot of really silly suggestions that are counter to what the game is and what we want it to be, we'll politely decline those suggestions.  Even if those suggestions would be a great game, if they aren't in keeping with the overall design goals for AVWW then they don't fit.  Suggesting features that would be appropriate for a serious racing sim to the Mario Kart developers should get you the same treatment, if you see what I mean.

If the worry is that there's nobody steering the ship, that's something that I think you don't have to fear.  I, personally, am steering the ship.  The thing is, I just don't have a particular preference for my own ideas over the ideas that are presented by other people, so lots of people get to participate and what seem to be the best ideas to me at the time get implemented.  That's not a perfect process, obviously, but it's not the massive stew-pot of unpredictability that you might think.

Now -- has the game been undergoing some radical changes post-1.0?  Yes.  I think the reason for that has been rather the same reasoning behind why AI War changed so much between 3.x and 4.x.  Basically, there was a strong core there, but there were a lot of nits.  And with a suddenly-larger playerbase, we suddenly had a new perspective on the nits and could do something about it.  We also had more brains generating potential solutions to the nits as the community grew in both cases, and so better solutions were arrived at more quickly.

With 1.3 (and beyond), honestly I don't plan any major overhauls.  I mean, if we find out there is a need for something then obviously we won't let something that stinks stay. But I think that the current systems are quite good and really allow for expansion.  What I want to see in 1.3 is more content development, more things that make the world feel like a living place, more things that make use of the new citybuilding/NPC underlying mechancis, more stuff that makes use of the environmental threat mechanics, infestation mechanics, etc.  Plus more spells, more spell modifiers to make more procedural spells, more enemies, more procedural modifiers to bosses in particular to make them more unique, and so forth.

And then there's the question of the art style.  That's been so divisive, that, given the financial chance to do so, we're going to explore changing it.  Nothing may come of it, or we might have something that a lot of people find more palatable.  The stuff from Studio G is looking particularly promising lately, as it most keeps to the spirit of the existing style/mood while looking amazingly better.

Anyhow, to sum up: I firmly believe that the best ideas can't be thought up in advance.  If you want to make a big-budget game that isn't all that innovative except in one small area or perhaps which has a really cool story, then by all means go with the design document approach.  If you have a staff of hundreds, that's basically required in order to get anything done.  But that's not what we do: for better or for worse, there's no other game like AVWW out there, and our exploratory design process let's us gradually chip away at it until it looks more and more like what we didn't even realize we wanted it to be.  That's a nontraditional process, to be sure, but I think that's the only way to have a lot of innovation in one game rather than having something that is an incremental improvement over past games.

For a lot more details about our process, see:

http://christophermpark.blogspot.com/2009/10/iterative-game-design-right-way.html

and

http://christophermpark.blogspot.com/2011/06/more-musings-on-iterative-game-design.html


All that said, I understand the core concern that is here.  I can see how this process could be incompatible with some people and their expectations or goals.  If that's the case, then I'd recommend waiting until the game settles more, and then buy it then if it seems like something you would like.  I'm not offended by the idea that someone might choose to do that, and I can even relate to the reasons why you might do so.  But we're not doing things the way we are because we're just flailing or have no idea what we're about: we're very directed in our rapid prototyping, and have a very specific process for it.

Hope that helps clear it up a bit at least!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 05:13:03 pm by x4000 »
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline dlcooper

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: I can't buy this game
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2012, 05:56:34 pm »
I like the way this company develops their games with the constantly evolving type of approach.  It's hard to find another company that listens to players so much.  They do change the games a lot but it's always done to improve gameplay.  Sometimes it seems to be a bit of a trial and error type of thing but that makes it interesting.  That's why I like supporting this company.

As for what Chris said about the art style, I've always like the art style of AVWW.  I know I've seen some people mentioning not liking it, but think it looks great.