How the game treats "failures" or "mistakes".

[Professor Paul1290]

This is something that has occurred to me more and more recently and it's something that's is probably going to be a bit unpopular and jarring (and as always may be complete and utter crap) but I think it's worth discussing anyway.

One of the major complaints that come up with A Valley Without Wind is that it becomes very repetitive and dragging after a while. I personally don't agree with this assessment, but I think I'm starting to understand why some people feel this way and have a possible "bigger picture" theory as to why.

While some smaller changes have gone quite a way towards removing the grinding and repetition, I think there's a much bigger source of repetition that isn't going to be as easy to solve, and that lies in how the game behaves when players do "poorly". (I use quotes here because this is a very subjective thing).

A Valley Without Wind does not have very many clear failure conditions. Rather it allows the player to make up for their mistakes by going to additional and often repeating tasks. This works fine in a lot of cases. It allows players to pick and choose how they take on challenges provided that they are willing to put up with the consequences of their chosen way of dealing with problems.
However, the problem comes because there are a LOT of things in the game that work this way and after a while small "mistakes" start to build up pretty severely.

This works fine in a lot of RPGs and a lot of Strategy games where the often "big picture" view allows players to recognize connect the need for less than optimal repetitious tasks as a result of a buildup of "mistakes". In platformers this isn't accepted quite as well, and it's harder to make such a connection.



This leads into the point I'm trying to highlight:
Currently the only way A Valley Without Wind can "punish" the player to provide a challenge in many cases is to provide setbacks and throw more tasks at them, which I think for some people is always going to contribute to the feeling of grind and repetition as long as a lot of the challenges in the game work this way.

This isn't really "bad" by itself, but I think it does contribute to a lot of people's misgivings the game.

[x4000]

Personally I think it has a lot more to do with other factors, but we'll see -- right now I'm more focused on the immediate things that I know will help.  Such as:

- Making it so that fewer missions are required per tier (already done).
- Making it so that players don't get stuck for so long trying to accomplish one tertiary goal like getting a specific NPC type (already done).
- Adding more varied types of missions to reduce the sense of repetition from that (working on it, nothing implemented yet).
- Adding more varied types of monsters and environmental obstacles to reduce the sense of repetition from those (working on it, lots implemented but lots more to do).
- Giving players more customization options earlier -- changes with the upgrade stones, with the character type special abilities, and with more enchants earlier (so again working on it, but more to do).
- Adding more spells for players to work towards and craft to provide a longer-form sense of progression past continent 1 (not really started this yet, but something I think will help a lot).
- Adding vastly more varied stash rewards, including lots more spell scrolls (not started this yet much, but something that should help metric tons).
- Providing more options for players at the strategic level, for how to go about building up their character or settlement and thus take down the overlord (working on that; some various things implemented but still incredible amounts more we could do with time).
- Making things like lieutenant towers take a lot less time and be a lot more varied -- a more focused and interesting challenge rather than something spread very far out and too similar to the overlord's keep (working on that for release in the next few days).
- Adding both to what is available right from the start, but also to what is only available starting on continent 2 and 3, so that the game noticeably expands and alters even more as you go further.


A lot of these things are pretty much what we've been planning all along, some are ones that we've picked up since going 1.0, but I think that all of them get more at the core of the issue than punishing the players.  All of the above definitely needs to be done and adds an immense amount of value to the experience even for players who already love the game.  So that's pretty well where our heads are at first, and some of the finer points of things like the death system and so forth we're pretty much mulling and brainstorming.  Not going to rush into anything with those, and I agree there's always room for improvement with any game system (otherwise D&D wouldn't have evolved at all in the last 20 years, eh?).

Mainly I point the above out because it's months and months of work that we know will add value for everyone, and that expands the game in exciting ways even for those who already love it.  Meanwhile as solutions (or partial solutions) become clear to mechanics that need to be streamlined or altered, we're obviously doing that as well.  Just not really with any rush, because that ultimately leads to subpar results and frustrated players who can't keep track of what the rules of the game are.  Personally, I think that as the variety of missions and spells and enemies and all that increase, the perspective on what is really needed in terms of core mechanics changes will become a lot clearer than it currently is.

Or somebody might have the key insight later tonight; you never know, and it definitely does happen.  But that's more or less the process we're working on, and the focus that we have aside from flashes of insight that occur.

[Professor Paul1290]

Actually, I think a lot of what you just mentioned does help with this.

I guess to better explain what I'm trying to explain (which I'm probably doing rather poorly), I'm NOT advocating making the game "harder" or more "punishing". I'm looking more at how the game reacts to player mishaps.


I guess to use a somewhat humorous allegory, most games reincarnate players when they mess up while A Valley Without Wind sends players to "grind hell" when they mess up.
Right now, players can fall into "grind hell" and not know it. A lot of players don't like "grind hell". Players may end up believing the whole world consists of "grind hell" because they keep falling into it.

There are a number of ways to help with this, and a lot of the stuff mentioned above already does.

You can make it harder for players to fall into "grind hell" in the first place. Some of this is stuff already mentioned. Fewer missions per tier, shopping lists, better mission rewards, and other such changes help with this.
You can make "grind hell" less "hellish". Some of this is also stuff already mentioned. Better mission, monster, and room variety and better variety of stuff to play with in general helps with this.
You can reduce the typical sentence of people who get sent to "grind hell". Some of the stuff mentioned does this as well. Changes to upgrade stones, better stash rewards, and other such changes help with this.


I suppose if there's anything I'm suggesting that's different from what is already being done, I guess it would be either routing players to places other than "grind hell" when they mess up and better telegraphing of when they're starting to slide into it.
I guess by re-routing them I suppose setting up alternative consequences that don't involve putting the player into a pit they have to climb out of. Of course, I think that would mean giving players something to lose that they can't get back but won't destroy them if they lose it. (not sure what this could be)
By better telegraphing, I suppose something to give the player an idea of how well they are doing. Perhaps a case could be made for something similar to what settlement moral used to be but different to better fit the current game.

[MouldyK]

- Making things like lieutenant towers take a lot less time and be a lot more varied -- a more focused and interesting challenge rather than something spread very far out and too similar to the overlord's keep (working on that for release in the next few days).

...i'm listening. -sits and waits for this change as it seems interesting-


And you make good points, Professor, and I have read these things being said so often already.


What I am currently doing is taking a more backseat approach of watching and reading how the game unfolds rather than playing as often as before, and hoping by the end of the year or Expansion 1, if it gets one, whatever comes first, that all the creases are ironed out and AVWW can get the release it deserved the first time round.

[Zozma]

I don't really understand where this "grind hell" comes in. Death results in you rerolling a new character and using upgrade stones (which are more common than acid water and soon to be removed entirely), to restore them. Aside from death, there are really no other mistakes you can make. You can't really unintentionally progress the continet's tier too quickly anymore and resources are practically limitless if you know where to look for them. Nothing sets you back. Is there something I'm missing in your post?

[Misery]

I don't really understand where this "grind hell" comes in. Death results in you rerolling a new character and using upgrade stones (which are more common than acid water and soon to be removed entirely), to restore them. Aside from death, there are really no other mistakes you can make. You can't really unintentionally progress the continet's tier too quickly anymore and resources are practically limitless if you know where to look for them. Nothing sets you back. Is there something I'm missing in your post?

I'm not catching onto what that means either.

The only thing in the game that feels even SLIGHTLY grindy to me is when I'm running around gathering Moon Lamps, and even then that takes me all of 10 minutes to get a huge pile of them.    If I get killed somewhere, the game belches out a new character, I do the upgrades that take all of 10 seconds, and I go back to what I was doing.

[NyQuil]

Two minor mentions in this direction:

First, perhaps give new player a one time only use stuck button.  I know when I was new, I kept running out of platforms before I learned where to get more easily and how they work (I spammed so many in areas without background walls, and couldn't figure out why there weren't platforms.)  Other than getting stuck in a bit, the other fun thing for new players is the destroyed room, which isn't quite obvious as being almost useless and getting stuck in a small space with no spells or items to escape.  I know I could have used a one time slap and the head and a don't do this, the rest of the world is cruel popup.

Second, this isn't something that people seem to like in multiplayer games, is the ability to stand out.  Perhaps the introduction of costume items, (pants, shirt, hat/helmet), that can be randomly received as semi-rare, and they aren't transferable to new characters.  People may become more attached to a character due to the unique look they have found and setup.  I'd have these items have no real affect on anything in game, just cosmetics.

Edit: Third option; Limit the number of vengeful ghosts.  It could be based on a difficulty setting, continent tier, and even number of player in the game when it happened.

[Misery]

Two minor mentions in this direction:

First, perhaps give new player a one time only use stuck button.  I know when I was new, I kept running out of platforms before I learned where to get more easily and how they work (I spammed so many in areas without background walls, and couldn't figure out why there weren't platforms.)  Other than getting stuck in a bit, the other fun thing for new players is the destroyed room, which isn't quite obvious as being almost useless and getting stuck in a small space with no spells or items to escape.  I know I could have used a one time slap and the head and a don't do this, the rest of the world is cruel popup.

Second, this isn't something that people seem to like in multiplayer games, is the ability to stand out.  Perhaps the introduction of costume items, (pants, shirt, hat/helmet), that can be randomly received as semi-rare, and they aren't transferable to new characters.  People may become more attached to a character due to the unique look they have found and setup.  I'd have these items have no real affect on anything in game, just cosmetics.

Edit: Third option; Limit the number of vengeful ghosts.  It could be based on a difficulty setting, continent tier, and even number of player in the game when it happened.

This gives me a sudden idea:

How about a new Guardian Scroll that removes all vengeful ghosts in a region?   I've had that problem myself a few times when massively bad luck / huge amounts of danger / huge amounts of me doing stupid things combine with stubbornness to create a single room with like 8 ghosts and a boss prowling around.

A scroll like that would be a good way to clear them out, and the "cost" of it is that you'd have to go do a seperate mission somewhere (provided the game has spawned one!) to earn one (or perhaps buy it for a high price at the Opal store).

This would make sure that ghosts dont completely cause the player to get stuck (for example, if this happens in a Lieutenant or Overlord battle, you can actually get COMPLETELY STUCK as the difficulty rises to an insane level due to a bazillion ghosts AND horrible boss of doom).


As it is though, I actually think ghosts should be a little more of a threat than they are;  if you just have one or two, they're usually easily flattened.

[yllamana]

That all seems pretty macro-level. I'm really interested in the bubble-popping area and ways that can be improved (I'd sort of like to make a discussion thread about it).

One thing about the game at the moment is you're very heavily discouraged from taking risks because you can die super fast if something goes wrong. I had a 400ish-health character get killed instantly by getting hit by a number of those green expanding armadillo projectiles all at once. The way touching a monster does a gazillion times more damage than getting hit by its projectiles also encourages you to play very safe, as does the general tempo of the game at a slightly higher level.

To elaborate on that last bit - I feel like a lot of times your health isn't an issue on the micro level. You're going to win this fight, no matter how badly you screw it up. The question is more how much damage you take and how sustainable that damage intake is. I'm not sure if that's something the Arcen team was going for, but it really encourages super safe gameplay as well.

I think I'd like to see ways to make the gameplay more exciting at the micro level and to encourage risk taking. One possible example is how many platformers make you invincible for a while after you get hit. I'm not sure how that would map onto AVWW - it's a bit different with how things do different amounts of damage rather than just one "heart" or something - but it's a thought.

I haven't personally run into anything big and punishing on the macro level unless you count vengeful spirits. Those can be pretty daunting, especially given the fight killed you off in the first place without the help of a vengeful spirit!

I'll keep going and see how I do.

[Misery]

That all seems pretty macro-level. I'm really interested in the bubble-popping area and ways that can be improved (I'd sort of like to make a discussion thread about it).

One thing about the game at the moment is you're very heavily discouraged from taking risks because you can die super fast if something goes wrong. I had a 400ish-health character get killed instantly by getting hit by a number of those green expanding armadillo projectiles all at once. The way touching a monster does a gazillion times more damage than getting hit by its projectiles also encourages you to play very safe, as does the general tempo of the game at a slightly higher level.

To elaborate on that last bit - I feel like a lot of times your health isn't an issue on the micro level. You're going to win this fight, no matter how badly you screw it up. The question is more how much damage you take and how sustainable that damage intake is. I'm not sure if that's something the Arcen team was going for, but it really encourages super safe gameplay as well.

I think I'd like to see ways to make the gameplay more exciting at the micro level and to encourage risk taking. One possible example is how many platformers make you invincible for a while after you get hit. I'm not sure how that would map onto AVWW - it's a bit different with how things do different amounts of damage rather than just one "heart" or something - but it's a thought.

I haven't personally run into anything big and punishing on the macro level unless you count vengeful spirits. Those can be pretty daunting, especially given the fight killed you off in the first place without the help of a vengeful spirit!

I'll keep going and see how I do.

I think some of this though is also dependant on the player.

I'm generally confident in my ability to dodge damn near everything, and I'm also impatient (in that I have no patience whatsoever) and aggressive, so I'll jump right into any risky situation rather than wait it out.   And I definitely have a bad habit of crashing into enemies while storm dashing.   Yes, I COULD slow down, but..... that'd make me take longer to get to places, see.

Dont think it needs the blinky damage thing though.   The player can always choose a higher health character for any given area if they're having trouble there, and MOST things dont do super-insane damage in this game, aside from:  1.  Smacking into those horrid green splitter projectiles, 2.  Getting covered in raptors (ARGH), and 3. Traps, either the blades or the spikes.   These things are generally obvious enough that you can make them a priority, when it comes to avoidance.

I *still* havent seen the "stuff-falls" yet (seriously, not even ONE), so I cant comment on those.

[LayZboy]

I don't really understand where this "grind hell" comes in.

Maybe it's were some spells need pretty much the same resources just more of them (yeah I'm looking at you shields) so you just have to farm many of the same object over and over and over again.

[Zozma]

I don't really understand where this "grind hell" comes in.

Maybe it's were some spells need pretty much the same resources just more of them (yeah I'm looking at you shields) so you just have to farm many of the same object over and over and over again.

I can see that for arcane ingredients, which can be a bother to collect when the appropriate missions don't pop up. Mundane ingredients, though, are always in ready supply. The game doesn't make you look for things; it tells you where they are, and when you go there, you find them.

[Misery]

I don't really understand where this "grind hell" comes in.

Maybe it's were some spells need pretty much the same resources just more of them (yeah I'm looking at you shields) so you just have to farm many of the same object over and over and over again.

I can see that for arcane ingredients, which can be a bother to collect when the appropriate missions don't pop up. Mundane ingredients, though, are always in ready supply. The game doesn't make you look for things; it tells you where they are, and when you go there, you find them.

There does seem to be a few very specific arcane ingredients that can be a pain to get (COMET SHARDS ARGH). 

Oh, and the "Old Growth" stuff, agh, it took awhile to get my hands on a bit of those.

[LayZboy]

I can see that for arcane ingredients, which can be a bother to collect when the appropriate missions don't pop up. Mundane ingredients, though, are always in ready supply. The game doesn't make you look for things; it tells you where they are, and when you go there, you find them.

I more mean that Shields always need the same ingredients no matter their level, I think one or two other spells do this as well but I am not sure. I would rather have them needing new ingredients like Fire shield needing magma at level 3 and Deep magma at level 5 or something like that. At the moment you just grind enough plums (is it?), the desired shield colour gem, and cherrys (?) to get the shield as soon as you get the Tier orbs.

Also plums are not that common sometimes, I usually just farmed secret mission entrances in towns by leave and re-entering till I have enough.

[zebramatt]

I can see that for arcane ingredients, which can be a bother to collect when the appropriate missions don't pop up. Mundane ingredients, though, are always in ready supply. The game doesn't make you look for things; it tells you where they are, and when you go there, you find them.

I more mean that Shields always need the same ingredients no matter their level, I think one or two other spells do this as well but I am not sure. I would rather have them needing new ingredients like Fire shield needing magma at level 3 and Deep magma at level 5 or something like that.

+1