Author Topic: How is history kept?  (Read 5815 times)

Offline leekster

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How is history kept?
« on: June 30, 2011, 07:58:13 pm »
I just had a quick question about history. Lets say you wipe out a overlord's outpost and free that region. Now lets say that character died of mortal wounds. Now when you go back there and ask about the history what will happen? Will the elders look wistfully to the sky and tell you to gather round? Or will you unearth a slab telling you of the marvelous deeds your previous character did? Thanks for the help.

Cheers.

P.S. I had an awesome image in my head yesterday. I thought it would be pretty cool if you were fighting an overlord and then you heard an ominous crack, then the ground broke open and swallowed the outpost. I think it would be badass.

Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 08:02:32 pm »
To some extent we're not yet talking about the way the history is kept in detail, but we're polishing up a lot of that now and it will be one of the foci of the next video/diary stuff.

But the basic idea is that there is a "story web" that has all of the backstory as well as the Deeds that you do.  The number of professions in the NPC milieu has grown some since last we talked about professions, and one of the new professions is Storyteller.  You can also talk to the town's guardian stone about some of these things, and there's also things like grave markers with epitaphs for fallen characters.

Keith might stop by with more details, I don't know, but this is his thing and it's still inwork, so that's all I'm really comfortable saying just yet.  But we're really excited about how this system is turning out, anyhow, and we'll be sharing the details on it in 2ish weeks or so. :)
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Offline leekster

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 08:26:18 pm »
Thank you for your speedy response. I am very excited for the beta. I can't wait to get my hands on this. Godspeed and good luck x4000 and Keith.


Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 09:28:45 pm »
My pleasure, and thanks for your enthusiasm, too. :)
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Offline Magos Mechanicus

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 07:31:36 am »
Looking forward to seeing that dev diary. This part of the design has caught my eye the most so far.
You can also talk to the town's guardian stone about some of these things, and there's also things like grave markers with epitaphs for fallen characters.
Talking guardian stones, huh? Interesting. Would these be the "enigmatic Ilari", by any chance?

Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 08:19:24 am »
The guardian stones are sort of posessed by the Illari, but they aren't really one and the same.  Since you're a "lensbearer" that's what lets you do certain things -- like talk to the Illari through the six colors of guardian stones.  Among many, many other thematic things the lens lets your character do.  More on that coming up, too. :)
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Offline Flatfingers

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 05:46:42 pm »
This question of the history of the deeds of you-the-player reminds me of something. I know we're still a few weeks out from the reveal of this part of the game, but maybe that makes this the right time to ask.

When I was working out the design concepts for my "Living World" game idea (the early similarities to which were why A Valley Without Wind caught my attention), one of the notions I liked the best was that the NPCs of the Living World were aware that an entity of some kind (that would be you-the-player) had for untold years appeared occasionally to "possess" some people, eliminating their identity and basically forcing that character to go do strange and sometimes lethally dangerous things.

Wouldn't it be interesting, I thought, to allow NPCs to react accordingly when they realize you've just taken over one of them? How would children or a husband react to an unknown spirit, or demonic force, or sorcerer of some kind taking their mother and wife away from them?

I don't know if that kind of interaction and story/history seems interesting to anyone else, but I thought I'd put this possibility out there for Keith to consider... just in case.  ;)

Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 06:29:27 pm »
That's certainly one way to go, for sure -- and it's an interesting way.  The theme here isn't that you're possessing anyone, though, it's that you're just roleplaying one character at a time.  But, your way is cool too. :)
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Offline Flatfingers

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 07:33:15 pm »
Hmm. What's been described so far is that when the character you're currently playing gets permakilled, you choose another existing NPC and, in some sense, permanently take over all decision-making for that character. You are in effect forcing that character -- who previously had a "life" and perhaps a distinct role in a settlement -- to become your new avatar.

If that's still pretty much the plan, I think it's not unfair to suggest that their fellow NPCs -- if they're programmed to have any kind of social awareness -- would tend to regard the sudden transformation of their long-time neighbor into a complete stranger as a kind of "possession."

I don't want to quibble over semantics, though. (Well... at least not any more than I already have.) The important bit is whether NPCs may realize when one of their own becomes the player's new avatar. I don't think it would hurt AVWW not to implement that feature; I was simply curious if that seemed like something that might be a good fit for this game as it's currently conceived.

Everybody thinks their game idea is brilliant until they have to implement it.  ;)

Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2011, 07:49:12 pm »
Well, understand that I completely get where you're coming from -- and that would make a very interesting game.  But, to take an analogy from another game: does Locke become a stranger to everyone else in Final Fantasy when I use him as my character?  Is Terra suddenly ripped from her former self?

You could certainly make that the case, and make an interesting game based on possession.  But there's nothing that says it is implicitly that way, either.  When someone is an NPC, they're governed by the general game code and the decisions it decides to make for them.  When someone is a player avatar, then the player makes the decisions instead of the game code.  I liken it to being the overlord in Descent or Zargon in Hero Quest: I control all the monsters rather than having the computer do it, but the result is still thematically the same.

Not to say that the avatar thing can't be done.  You could just as easily have Zargon posses a Chaos Knight and fight the heroes in that form.  And you could even have some special game mechanics that go along with it.  But that's a conscious design choice, and I think it needs to be a rather fundamental underpinning of the design, and it also leads to a lot of close encounters with the fourth wall that have to be carefully managed.  It's very, very doable, and I think it would be great -- but it's also a really specific design that affects a whole lot of thematic elements in ways that we don't want to affect them.

Specifically, in AVWW, you the player don't exist.  "You" don't have a personality or an ongoing good/evil ratio or anything like that.  Rather, you take over one character at a time, and they have personality that comes from their past and that you might inject.  They might be heroic or not, etc.  They might be a brutal murderer because you made them that way, and everybody is glad when they die.  But when you get the next character, you now have that character's past, not the muderer's.

Sure, you could again say the possession idea makes sense there still, and you'd be right that it definitely could still work given the above.  But where I don't like it, for this game, is that it implies that some higher power -- you -- is looking out for the world at large.  In AVWW, some of the Illari sort of look out for certain small areas of the world, same as some of the Illari really screw with certain small areas of the world, but there's no overarching good or evil force in the world as a whole.  It's a mess of city-states and regions with their own problems, and their own interconnections that crop up.

What you, the player, are doing is shepherding the whole thing through your unseen hand, for good or for ill.  And it might be for good AND ill.  You can roleplay one character as a complete jerk, and then roleplay the next as a saint when the first one dies.  Completely up to you.

Though, I don't want to make too big a deal out of character personality at this early stage, because pre-1.0 we're basically going for JRPG levels of characterization there.  Which is to say, light.  The first focus is on the communities, the bad guys, and the really broad things like deeds and hopes.  Of course we intend to keep developing this post-1.0 if it's popular enough to support us working on it, and more stuff with the settlements and individual characters are at the top of our list for that if we hit that point.

But first and foremost this is an adventure game, and sort of a roguelike, and sort of a very light city builder, and sort of a twisted form of strategy game.  RPG isn't really in that list at all, although it does have some RPG-like aspects such as character stats, backstory, etc.  But the focus is on you and your decisions, and how you accomplish the various goals that you decide are important to you, rather than on progression through a rich pre-scripted scenario, is I guess what I mean.

Anyway, hopefully that explains our decision-making process a little more, in terms of what angle we're viewing it from.  I really do like your idea quite a lot, but I think it fits better with an RPG.
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Offline Flatfingers

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 04:30:38 am »
Completely understood now (I hope), and a perfectly reasonable approach given the focus of the game on adventure over more story-driven RPG elements (at least to start with).

As always, thanks for taking the time to help a fan understand things a little better.

Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 08:53:20 am »
My pleasure, and thanks as well!
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Offline Teal_Blue

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 04:49:35 pm »
Hmm. What's been described so far is that when the character you're currently playing gets permakilled, you choose another existing NPC and, in some sense, permanently take over all decision-making for that character. You are in effect forcing that character -- who previously had a "life" and perhaps a distinct role in a settlement -- to become your new avatar...


:)   FlatFingers,
                            You should write a Sci-Fi Novel. Or a bunch of them, :)   That idea would be way cool to read stories about.

:)


-Teal


... and i will try to write some 'crafting' stories... like lost in the wilderness and making traps and surviving... kind of like Island of the Blue Dolphins set to modern.  :)




:)

« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 04:58:15 pm by Teal_Blue »

Offline Magos Mechanicus

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2011, 11:54:25 am »
But we're really excited about how this system is turning out, anyhow, and we'll be sharing the details on it in 2ish weeks or so. :)
I think it's been closer to 3ish weeks now, so... are we there yet? :P

Offline x4000

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Re: How is history kept?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2011, 11:59:44 am »
It's going to be several more weeks, actually -- we've had a bit of a scope bump with how we implemented dungeons and a few other things.  That's been extremely good for the game, but it's pushing us further out on what we're going to be able to show that is complete, and on beta by a bit, too.  We'd hoped to have beta in early August, but now it's looking like very late August at best.

We'll have some screens or something to show this week, but no new videos until probably the first or second week in August.  Right now we're working on so many different things with the game, and it's a bit tough to show any of it (to the larger audience beyond these forums, anyway) without showing all of it.  That's kind of what we've been running into with our plans for beta, too, is that this really has to be closer to feature-complete than we'd initially been planning or else people get disappointed.  So the project as a whole is still roughly on schedule so far, but the beta keeps getting pushed back because we have to make a really good first impression in terms of what people get when they first try it.

Anyway, lots of stuff in progress with the interface, the macrogame, interiors, dungeons, bosses, new spells, crafting... etc.  The next set of videos, whenever we manage to hit the level of completion we're looking for on all those things, is aiming to show all of them.  :)
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