Author Topic: How do you win? Some other stuff  (Read 4726 times)

Offline Cyborg

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How do you win? Some other stuff
« on: May 10, 2011, 01:58:23 pm »
One question: how do you win?

I see a lot of comparisons to the legend of Zelda, but that game really doesn’t exist without Zelda. It would be like Mario without Princess peach back in the 80’s. I’m not suggesting that we have some overarching villain and rescue scenario; this question is not to be taken literally.

Or how about Minecraft? One could argue the point of that game is to get to the netherworld, get the best materials, and build some impenetrable super Fortress in survival multiplayer mode. Beyond that, construct little inventions and roller coasters, or how about just playing around with friends in a casual Sim(8-Bit)City world?

I see that there is a trail and a progression of items, although I am guessing that my Awesome Sword is going to be the same as another player’s Awesome Sword which means there is some finite item progression because you cannot literally make up something new. I do not understand how you will have a finite item scenario and yet a (potentially) infinite difficulty progression.

Let’s assume that you do have an infinite difficulty progression, and your Awesome Sword becomes Even More Awesome Sword. Does that mean you just leave a trail of rescued settlements with progressively more awesome swords?

In AI war, there is(for all intents and purposes) infinite amount of gameplay, and this gameplay does have a way to victory. A victory has many hours involved and randomly generated events throughout a campaign, but there is a way to win. And starting the next game really doesn’t feel like too much of a downer because there is just so much to do and see that defeating the AI is really just a punctuation mark on the complete sentence. But at least there is a goal, and I’m not sure that AI war would be the same game without that goal. Or *goals* I suppose, given the Fallen Spire campaign. I can’t find a reason to put AI war down because it is so huge, but I think that if the galaxy went on forever without an end to the AI, I probably would have put the game down by now. The only ‘complaints’ I have about AI war is how hard it is to find like-minded gamers who are up for a long campaign, and that I wish there was some non-gameplay related reward that you could show off as a token of your commander skill. Maybe it would be a special ship skin, or an unlocked ship type, or some kind of incentive to repeatedly beat on the AI. “Let’s go for an AI war campaign, maybe we will get some good random unlock from the AI.”

You mentioned Torchlight. I loved the hell out of that game, and I still could not get all of the achievements. When I defeated the game, I didn’t even realize that it was over. I kept playing for some ridiculous amount of time, just owning everything and gambling for better items as the game never seemed to drop the set I wanted. It was Diablo-lite, and I definitely got more than my money’s worth (like AI war, which I still play, whereas Torchlight I do not). I’m worried that Diablo 3 will be so amazing that I will lose birthdays enjoying myself on the dungeon crawling.

This post was just a long way of saying, what’s the point? :-)   What is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, where is the Princess, who is playing the role of Ganon (Ganondorf fans go home :-P), and how do you approach infinite progression with finite items? Do you eventually save the world?

 ???

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Offline tootboot

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2011, 04:31:01 pm »
With the possibility of getting up to level 2 billion I'm guessing you've won when you've completed all your goals for that character.

Offline Nalgas

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2011, 09:04:16 pm »
how do you approach infinite progression with finite items?

As far as I understand it, that's an incorrect assumption.  There may be a finite number of named items/materials, but after you run out of those and level up further, you can still make yourself an Unobtanium +37 longsword that casts Fireball LXXXIV every time you swing it when you're 8000 hours into the game.

Now Torchlight really does have a limited number of items.  Unless they changed it, there are only two tiers of equipment, and then they're capped at a fairly low level that's pretty worthless against harder enemies, but you can enchant them to be more and more powerful (if you're lucky).

They're slightly different ways of handling it, but both let you continue to improve in power fairly indefinitely until you get bored fighting against progressively harder stuff.  Torchlight is probably more limited, because without mods the chances of enchanting something beyond a certain point are pretty dismal, and you're more likely to just blow it up (which gets really, really irritating to me really, really quickly).

Offline x4000

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 09:25:52 am »
This post was just a long way of saying, what’s the point? :-)   What is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, where is the Princess, who is playing the role of Ganon (Ganondorf fans go home :-P), and how do you approach infinite progression with finite items? Do you eventually save the world?

There's no way to "win" in this game, to be sure.  It never ends, period.  However, there are many conflicts in the world, of varying scopes.  Using Zelda as a good example since we're all familiar with that, there are indeed "overlords" in AVWW that are on par with Gannon in a lot of ways.  They threaten Hyrule-or-larger tracts of land, and oppress everybody there.  To take them out, you'll have to go through a large chunk of gametime before you're ready.  And once you do defeat such an overlord, then that Hyrule-or-larger tract of land is suddenly liberated -- hooray, you're the hero!  People remember, things change, and no new overlord just moves in to take back over.

If you want to call that "winning" and "done," then go for it.  It has a similar arc to an adventure game story, or that's our goal.  But thing is, that's not all that's going on in the world.  You've also got improvements and such you can make at settlements, you've got more interesting items and such to craft, and there are more overlords threatening other parts of this infinite world.  Knock off one Gannon and you save one part of the world, one kingdom if you like, but there's plenty of other Gannons out there.

how do you approach infinite progression with finite items?

As far as I understand it, that's an incorrect assumption.  There may be a finite number of named items/materials, but after you run out of those and level up further, you can still make yourself an Unobtanium +37 longsword that casts Fireball LXXXIV every time you swing it when you're 8000 hours into the game.

Yep, that's precisely it.  There are two things going on, though, I should mention: there are new types of weapons and items and spells that are level gated, and then there are new levels of existing weapons and items and spells.  So let's say you can build rapiers from the start of the game.  You can still be building higher-level rapiers at the end of the game, too, if you want.  By then they will have changed to have more slots in them so that you can further customize them, but otherwise they are just a higher-stat version of the rapier you first saw.

That allows for an infinite progression, but obviously a repetitive one if that's all that's going on.  And that's where two things at play that make it not repetitive until hundreds of hours in: new items, and slots.  Slots alone are fascinating, because it lets you take a rapier and change it in fundamental ways -- power, speed, spell effects, etc.  And then new items are something that you find over time, too.  At level 1 there isn't an option for you to build a weak version of all the best spells.  Those spells don't even show up until later in the game, at higher levels.  So as you're exploring and leveling up and such, all sorts of new things keep cropping up that you can do.

Are those infinite?  Of course not.  Past a certain point, the game will get repetitive like any other.  Our goal is not to prevent that -- which is impossible -- but instead is to make that ridiculously far out compared to other adventure games.  This game is unique in that you can literally play for what would be infinite time in a human timespan, and there's always more goals.  You can strive for the Unobtanium +38 longsword, you can go for that Fireball LXXXV spell if you want to.  There's a level 40000 Gannon somewhere out there if you want to face him.  But those would require thousands of hours of gameplay to get to, and by that time you'd have seen so much of the game that there wouldn't be anything much new or surprising.

My goal is that a hundred or two hundred hours in, you're still finding at least bits of stuff that is new and surprising, and that you can play for thousands of hours if you like the tactics and mechanics of it.  There's plenty of FPS and adventure games that I play just for the joy of playing, even though there's no surprises.  Here you can keep doing that in one single world if you want to "replay" the game, rather than having to start a new world.  Or you can start a new world, the choice is up to you.

Another thing which we have going in our favor, which folks familiar with AI War already know, is that our games tend to evolve.  Let's say you have been playing for 8000 hours, and you get utterly bored because there is nothing new.  Well, presuming that there's still interest in the game and we're still building on it at that time, you could take a few months off and when you come back there's some new content to discover.  Free DLC and paid expansions are definitely in our plans here, unless it unexpectedly flops out of the gate or something.  So that's an advantage that we have over most of the games like Diablo and Torchlight, which don't see that sort of ongoing thing post-release to my knowledge.

Do you eventually save the world?

Definitely not; but you can save huge pieces of the world, as per above.  There are always more adventures to be had, though, and new villains to fight.
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 10:30:40 am »
This is completely tangential but Torchlight was as much about the community modding as it was about the content the developers provided - the very aspect of that game that appealed to me.

So yeah, the game only came with two tiers of items. But it was modded to have more. Not infinitely more (or rather, having infinitely more required you to re-run some scripts and reapply a mod whenever you got past five more levels) but certainly plenty.

And no, the developers hardly ever released any content themselves - but community modding (especially when the community got organised) picked up the slack.

Good game, that!  :)


On topic: this sounds like my sort of game! Monster Hunter remains an all time favourite precisely because, although there are plenty of designated goals (kill x of these monsters, capture this monsters, harvest x of this material, hunt this massive new monster, etc.) it's really about what you want to do, and when, and why. It's actually far more satisfying than games which conscript your objectives. The key is that the game provides a solid foundation for personal objectives.

In Monster Hunter, monsters need to hunted to gain materials to upgrade armour and weapons; armour and weapons are cool and allow you to hunt bigger monsters; which means better stuff; bigger monsters; new areas; new skills; etc. Sure, there are a finite number of types of monsters - but just to hunt one takes a serious investment of preparation, persistence and skill. And maybe you killed it by mistake, winning the mission but not gaining enough materials. So you go back and try to capture it. But maybe you don't have enough items after the first attempt - so you go in search of materials to make them. And so on. It's compelling precisely because no-one's forcing you to do anything!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 10:42:34 am by zebramatt »

Offline x4000

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 10:33:24 am »
That is certainly another way to go, and definitely awesome for Torchlight.

Here we'll be supporting community scripts and other community-created pieces of content, but not mods proper.  We'll also be endeavoring to include a lot of that community-created stuff in official patches so that it's all nice and organized and everyone gets the benefit of it; my biggest beef with mod-heavy games is that there tends to be a lot of incompatibilities and for anyone not into the mod scene, they might as well not exist.
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 11:00:29 am »
That is certainly another way to go, and definitely awesome for Torchlight.

Here we'll be supporting community scripts and other community-created pieces of content, but not mods proper.  We'll also be endeavoring to include a lot of that community-created stuff in official patches so that it's all nice and organized and everyone gets the benefit of it; my biggest beef with mod-heavy games is that there tends to be a lot of incompatibilities and for anyone not into the mod scene, they might as well not exist.

Agreed. As someone who dabbled in modding Torchlight, I know first hand how quickly it becomes essential for the modding community to really get its act together and work on cross-compatibility. Sometimes someone will put out something like TorchLeech (a database and application which ensured cross-compatibility). But even then it isn't easy, for sure, and it certainly dampens the creative output somewhat.

And that's just the practical side of things. Mods have this odd effect on a player base: you almost always get a dichotomy of those fans who love to mod and those who see it all as cheating. Some mods are certainly akin to more conventionally 'cheating' but I'd say those are in the minority. Usually it's about improving the gameplay experience, adding new stuff, devising interesting twists or increasing the challenge. Nonetheless, the dichotomy remains.

In short, whenever you've come up against someone who asks about extensive community modding of AI War, I've always agreed with you: centralised, ongoing developer content based on community feedback is always preferable to a modding community.#

(Also, I edited my post above ^^ to contain some on-topic content also, just after you replied!)

Offline x4000

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 11:02:38 am »
Opinions tend to be divided on that, too, but I'm glad that there are others that agree with my way. :)
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Offline Nalgas

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 01:14:53 pm »
This is completely tangential but Torchlight was as much about the community modding as it was about the content the developers provided - the very aspect of that game that appealed to me.

Unfortunately that didn't do me much good, because the base game was so incredibly short and easy that I was done/bored with it long, long before anyone had made much progress on adding more to it.  And when I say easy, I mean "completely trivial to do a no-death run (at least up until the final boss) even on the hardest difficulty your first time playing the game with no spoilers or hints".  I'm pretty sure their idea of "very hard" is the equivalent of "normal" in most games.

Anyway, having to rely on mods for that doesn't always work, because I ran out of game long before there were enough to make the game continue to be interesting to me, and whenever I've looked back since then every once in a while, there haven't been quite enough new ones released to make me want to play again.

Titan Quest, on the other hand, has managed to eat nearly 250 hours of my time so far, and that's with no mods at all.  Of course, it had a much bigger budget, and I'd say the game is actually too long (it gets kind of tedious replaying some areas, and I think it'd be better if it were about half the length with some of the less fun bits stripped out), but even without that, the core mechanics had so much more depth to them than TL that that's what really kept it fun.  Even a single class in TQ is more interesting than any of the ones in TL, but you get to combine any two of them with a single character which just gets ridiculous and adds a ton of replay value to it.

my biggest beef with mod-heavy games is that there tends to be a lot of incompatibilities and for anyone not into the mod scene, they might as well not exist.

Torchlight wasn't too bad for incompatibilities, but there were some showing up already even when I originally was playing, which was right after it came out.  The ultimate example is probably Oblivion, which takes a PhD in mod-ology to install some things.  It's a rather depressing game to me un-modded, because it's almost good in a lot of ways but doesn't quite pull it off in any of those ways.  They were way, way too overly ambitious and tried to do about 80 things and ended up with 80 mediocre things, because they only had the time/resources to do maybe 40 of them truly well.

There are an absurd number of mods for it that fix a lot of those things, but I probably spent more time choosing and installing and troubleshooting them than I did playing the game.  It's about a 5GB game, and my final install ended up around 25GB and was much better than the base game, but it still wasn't enough to keep me playing to the end of any of the main story/quest lines, much less all of them.  I'd much rather have a good base game than a lot of mods, because at some point you realize you have more mods than you have game and you probably should've just played a different game to begin with if you were going to replace the entire thing anyway.

I do have to say that one good thing about a large mod scene is that I've discovered that I have an inexplicably large amount of fun playing dress-up with my characters with all the silly clothing/armor people have made.  There's just something entertaining about running around a generic medieval fantasy world fighting monsters while dressed like Alyx from Half-Life 2, complete with a crowbar to replace your sword, and then swapping it out whenever you're bored for ninja gear or a French maid outfit or whatever else is most ridiculous/least appropriate.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 02:06:01 pm »
Okay, great replies. And maybe I need to see it to understand it. If there are going to be meaningful overlords that need a whupping, that would go well enough. Hopefully there will be a demo or a beta or something.

I have some doubts so far, especially as to why the randomly generated procedural approach to a never-ending adventure game; it would be like being stuck in final fantasy forever and never getting to the end boss, but my Buster sword is now level 50. I'm not sure how the mechanic will hold up without the trappings that accompany an adventure.

Not sure how gratifying that would be, without story, a reoccurring(think Ultros, not MMO spawn camping)/master villain, or plot( at least given so far).

And it could be that this game would not be good for me, which is also fine. Best of luck, and I will check back in the fall to see what's up. Or sooner if you update AI war.
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Offline x4000

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 02:46:58 pm »
Hopefully there will be a demo or a beta or something.

There will be both, as per our usual modus operandi. :)

I have some doubts so far, especially as to why the randomly generated procedural approach to a never-ending adventure game; it would be like being stuck in final fantasy forever and never getting to the end boss, but my Buster sword is now level 50. I'm not sure how the mechanic will hold up without the trappings that accompany an adventure.

Yep, it's new ground in a lot of ways, that's for sure.  But I think you're thinking of too limited a pool of items, in a lot of ways -- cloud got something like 10 swords in his whole adventure, all just art adjustments to the exact same single sword for him.  Here there's four different broad types of swords, and various named versions (with different color slash effects) of each.  But beyond that, there's going to be waaaay more spells, and ways to customize weapons with spells, and all that sort of thing.  So the decision space is a lot larger.

Not sure how gratifying that would be, without story, a reoccurring(think Ultros, not MMO spawn camping)/master villain, or plot( at least given so far).

There are many stories, that's the point -- there's a world full of stories, rather than one world-dominating story.  It's like throwing FF6 and FF7 into one world; different parts of the world have different conflicts and folks involved in them.  That said, this is not an RPG nor is it trying to be -- those are way more story heavy.  The story here is more like in Crystalis, Zelda, or similar.

Additionally, there are overarching mysteries and things that you can figure out about the overall world, unrelated to any particular region or similar.  And there's the whole sim-of-sim aspect of things, where you're developing your NPCs and settlements and trying to build something worthwhile and safe with them.

If you're looking for something story-driven that is like a Final Fantasy game, that is definitely not this game.  Rather, it's about plopping you down in a sea of unrelated but overlapping stories, and letting you choose how it is you will exist and persist in this world.  It's sort of how Zelda might be if there was more going on than just Link fighting Gannon all the time.  What if there was a whole ecosystem of heroes and villains and people in trouble and people trying to make a living and so on?  That's what we're trying to explore; not in a The Incredibles sort of way, but in some respects closer to a Dwarf Fortress kind of way.

But yeah, it's hard to explain because we're still figuring some of the specifics out ourselves, and there's nothing you can play yet.  It's a brand new concept, and as hard to explain as AI War originally was.  But that's why there's both a beta and a demo coming up, most likely in July or August.

Cheers!
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Offline tootboot

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 07:16:01 pm »
I'm not sure I could nail down what makes Dwarf Fortress successful in a 'choose your own adventure' sort of way instead of a SimCity sort of way. 

If I had to guess though, I'd say it might come down to the sheer number of game systems iinteracting with each other and the level of detail provided when things happen.  'A dwarf is stricken by a strange mood and barricades himself in a workshop refusing to eat until he finishes making an oaken crown with silk highlights' is almost like a little story in itself even though it's not a major event in the game.

Offline superking

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2011, 04:58:40 am »
DF adventure mode is baller becaus the world is so real. my most recent example:

My adventurer was a master swordsman with duel weilded swords and 100+ kills (all bandits... my adventurer hates bandits and is sworn to protect peasant farmers). During a difficult battle with a very large bandit camp, he has his right arm hacked off my a bandit axemaster, but manages to fight the pain and bloodloss to stay concious. His return left-handed swipe cleaves the axemasters lower body clean in two, and then he falls into martial trance and obliterates the rest of the bandits single handedly (ha HA!).

The sun is going down when all the bandits are dead. I nickname my adventurer 'One-arm'.  unfortunately, all my adventurers companions are also dead. Alone, The Bogey men will come if he dosnt make it to a town before nightfall. I begin travelling. Unluckily, the Bogey men catch me one square away from town. I decide to run cross country and get to the town the hard way. Bogey men rush from everywhere, but with a combination of body slamming and sprinting One Arm falls exhausted, bruised but safe through the door of a peasant hut and the Bogey men fade back into the night. The peasants recognise him as the great hero who has extinguished every bandit from here to the coast and welcome him to stay the night. Touched and aware of his crippling injury, One-Arm decides to retire in the village. He later becomes its leader.

***

I am playing fortress mode a few months later, and decide I need a quick buck: I rob a human convoy and tell the human emissary to stick it. A year later, a human seige arrives to bring vengance on my fortress... guess who is sat around the campfires with the human soldiers? None other than old One-Arm. In the battle that ensures, the humans charge down a long, one tile wide bridge while being pincushioned with arrows. Few make it to the other side, but one of those who do is One-Arm. He has arrows peirced through pretty much everything, is in pain, and is suffering from bloodloss, but hes in. he staggers into the horde of waiting dwarves, seemingly incapacitated... but no! The first dwarf to run in gets a sword straight through the breastplate. he incapacitates two more before the militia engage him en masse. fighting ten to one, One-Arm is unable to parry every attack and hit by hit his body is slowly crippled. When he loses his other arm (it flies off in an arc) One-Arm excepts the inevitable and allows himself to bleed to death. One-arm finally passes from this world into the next, surrounded by injured and frightened enemies, and having left a great rent in the history of his world.

this is how open-ended adventuer games should be ;D

« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 05:03:42 am by superking »

Offline x4000

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 09:40:43 am »
Bear in mind that DF has an enormous time advantage on us, having had years more to work on their engine while also not needing to worry particularly about graphics (a huge time savings, I'm sure).  That said, there are two of us programmers, and one of him. :P 

While I appreciate the insane depth of DF in all respects, I don't think anyone else is going to replicate that any time soon (it takes years of work, so you're sure to see any imitators coming).  It's similar to how AI War has too much of a head start to be easily duplicated in its kind of depth; it could be done, but we'd have a lot of advance warning unless somebody was unexpectedly slaving away for years in privacy (and then their QA would likely be crap).

Anyway, in no way is our goal to replicate DF or even close, at any rate.  It's a sim at heart, with a game built on top of that.  Ours is a game a heart, with some sim aspects built on top of that, which is a fundamentally different premise.  So while I hope to one day have some crazy stories like that associated with AVWW, we're not there yet and the path to that place isn't clear to me.

Then again: we're just getting started on the sim aspects of AVWW in the last couple of weeks, and it's slow gearing up at first.  Keith's main line of work from now until 1.0 is going to be the sim stuff and NPCs, so that's quite a lot of time in Arcen-time for us to be dumping into that one side of things.  I think the result is going to be really kick-butt.  We shall see! :)
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: How do you win? Some other stuff
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 03:28:31 pm »
@Nalgas

couldn't agree with you more. I've got both Torchlight and Titan quest on steam and TQ is the only one I'm still playing. I was done with Torchlight really fast for some reason while I'm still enjoying titan quest a lot after more than 200 hours on it. Making all different class combiations and leveling them to as high as possible just keeps me entertained to no end. Plus the whole difficulty lvl thing is what keeps me interested as well (clear the game on normal with a character, move to epic. Clear on epic, move to Legendary. Create a new character and you have to do it al over again for that character). Plus the higher difficulties also add new supertough optional bosses, like a giant robot, manticore, skeletal dragon, hydra, etc. When I know I'm getting close to one of them, I'm always thinking like "crap crap crap, almost there". Really keeps me thrilled.

off topic, I know, but I'm just a big fan of Titan Quest :P